random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Fri Jun 5 16:26:37 UTC 2020

Thanks I appreciate that.

This has been a stressful week for me, and I’ve tried to avoid looking at
these threads to avoid crying or otherwise having a little bit of a nervous
breakdown. Definitely am crying as I write this.

I do hope the new maintainers do well to juggle not breaking users while
making these libraries ever better.  It’s something I more time than I care
to admit trying to see clearly how to navigate.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 12:12 PM Fumiaki Kinoshita <fumiexcel at gmail.com>
wrote:

> First of all, I must apologise for using unnecessarily aggressive words.
> Also I apologise for making a statement which was interpreted the other way
> around; I'm really sorry about these.
>
> As a Haskell user who maintains a number of packages (
> http://hackage.haskell.org/user/FumiakiKinoshita) and tends packages my
> company is using, I keep track of their dependencies too. When I stumbled
> upon the moment where the participants of the discussion were insulted and
> directed to "go away" by Carter, and then the entire issue gets deleted, I
> didn't condemn it because I thought maybe he's just having a bad day. But
> when I realised that he's locking an issue again and blocking further
> contributions, "tyrannous" was the word which came to my mind with
> rekindled anger, but it was clearly a huge mistake considering what's
> happening in the part of the civilisation.
>
> > I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in
> good faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't
> show a little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times
> is not someone I want anywhere involved in package management.
> Zemyla, I understand your sentiment. I just wanted to protect the
> opportunities for people to contribute, but my value system is probably
> broken in many ways. Feel free to block me on GitHub or blame me whenever
> I'm being problematic.
>
> > This was brought to the attention of CLC and there was a decision made
> yesterday to replace Carter as maintainer of `random` and `vector`
> packages. Members of CLC contacted me together with others who participated
> in this initiative to improve `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard
> Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and myself, and we were asked to take over the
> maintainership of `random`. With regards to maintainership of `vector`, it
> was offered to Alexey Khudyakov and myself as well.
>
> Thank you very much for describing the situation explicitly. Status of the
> part of the ecosystem being obscure was what has been making me anxious;
> I'm happy to see that now everyone knows who to get in touch.
>
> Lastly Carter, I acknowledge your substantial contribution to the Haskell
> ecosystem and I feel for the stress and diseases you go through. From the
> time when I started writing Haskell many years ago, random and vector were
> substantial parts of my Haskell experience. I believe that everyone feels
> safe to talk about purely technical matters and also how to move things
> forward.
>
> 2020年6月5日(金) 21:43 Alexey Kuleshevich <alexey at kuleshevi.ch>:
>
>> I believe I was the person who initiated this whole thing therefore I
>> feel responsible to make this conversation stop as well.
>>
>> I totally understand what Carter is going through, my whole family lives
>> in the US and I have many friends living in NY. I also understand that
>> Carter has various issues, which he has shared with everyone over various
>> channels.
>>
>> Carter, I really do feel compassionate for you and do personally feel bad
>> that you have to deal with all those problems. I truly hope that you can
>> stay strong and be able to move forward despite them. That being said, I
>> also hope you understand that this does not mean that other members of the
>> community have to suffer because of it. If you can't do a job, it doesn't
>> really matter why, what matters is that you should not stay in a way when
>> someone is willing to step up and do it for you.
>>
>> Many people came forward recognizing multiple issues with a way Carter
>> maintained community projects over the years. This was brought to the
>> attention of CLC and there was a decision made yesterday to replace Carter
>> as maintainer of `random` and `vector` packages. Members of CLC contacted
>> me together with others who participated in this initiative to improve
>> `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and
>> myself, and we were asked to take over the maintainership of `random`. With
>> regards to maintainership of `vector`, it was offered to Alexey Khudyakov
>> and myself as well.
>>
>> If I understand correctly Carter is still a member of CLC, and if so he
>> still has the authority and responsibilities that any other member of the
>> committee possess and he is welcome to continue to oversee our work on
>> those packages, but any maintenance related questions please address to
>> myself and other maintainers. I personally prefer to keep as much
>> communication public for public projects, therefore feel free to get in
>> touch me either on newly created gitter: https://gitter.im/haskell/vector or
>> on the corresponding issue tracker for more technical discussions.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Alexey Kuleshevich
>>
>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>> On Friday, June 5, 2020 2:06 PM, Zemyla <zemyla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So you're saying that the fact that there's basically a civil war and
>> pandemic going on is no excuse to respond to e-mails. And you're calling
>> his behavior "tyrannous" when there are literal tyrants shooting tear gas
>> at civilians.
>>
>> I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good
>> faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a
>> little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not
>> someone I want anywhere involved in package management.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 02:18 Fumiaki Kinoshita <fumiexcel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For example video call is not a great method for me because of the
>>> following reasons:
>>>
>>> * I'm not a good English speaker (especially I sometimes have difficulty
>>> with colloquial American English)
>>> * I live in a different timezone
>>> * I prefer open communication
>>>
>>> Although it's totally fine that you have a preference, I have no
>>> doubt that core library maintenance should have more acceptance and
>>> transparency.
>>>
>>> I hesitated talking about this because issues might get
>>> locked/edited/deleted, and the participants might get accused of being
>>> "thick headed assholes" again like you did in
>>> https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/267#issuecomment-579588727,
>>> but I must say:
>>> Frankly, it feels extremely unfair that you ask us to focus on
>>> "technical matters" (which excludes maintenance for some reason) only,
>>> while you frequently use non-technical reasons (your diseases and the
>>> situation in New York) as an excuse. Your asthma doesn't rub me in the
>>> wrong way; your tyrannous behaviour does. With all due respect I suggest
>>> you not to use CLC privileges to cope with your personal stresses.
>>>
>>> 2020年6月5日(金) 7:29 Carter Schonwald <carter.schonwald at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a
>>>> police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of
>>>> stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week
>>>> thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <
>>>> carter.schonwald at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is
>>>>> generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via
>>>>> video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..
>>>>>
>>>>> yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and
>>>>> allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way .
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <mail at profpatsch.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> chessai . <chessai1996 at gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via
>>>>>> email at
>>>>>> > chessai1996 at gmail.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
>>>>>> of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
>>>>>> talk to a trustee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <david.feuer at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>>>>>> >> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>>>>>> >> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <mail at profpatsch.de>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>>>>> >>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>>>>> >>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> >>> deleted.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Profpatsch <notifications at github.com> writes:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>> >>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>>>>> >>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>>>>> >>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>> >>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over
>>>>>> mailinglists, issue
>>>>>> >>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over
>>>>>> maintainership of
>>>>>> >>> `random` as a base package.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>>>>> >>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> >>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s
>>>>>> behaviour is
>>>>>> >>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage
>>>>>> you to
>>>>>> >>> add your voice publicly.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> ~ Profpatsch
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> >>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>>>>> >>>
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