random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Fri Jun 5 16:10:42 UTC 2020

First of all, I must apologise for using unnecessarily aggressive words.
Also I apologise for making a statement which was interpreted the other way
around; I'm really sorry about these.

As a Haskell user who maintains a number of packages (
http://hackage.haskell.org/user/FumiakiKinoshita) and tends packages my
company is using, I keep track of their dependencies too. When I stumbled
upon the moment where the participants of the discussion were insulted and
directed to "go away" by Carter, and then the entire issue gets deleted, I
didn't condemn it because I thought maybe he's just having a bad day. But
when I realised that he's locking an issue again and blocking further
contributions, "tyrannous" was the word which came to my mind with
rekindled anger, but it was clearly a huge mistake considering what's
happening in the part of the civilisation.

> I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good
faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a
little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not
someone I want anywhere involved in package management.
Zemyla, I understand your sentiment. I just wanted to protect the
opportunities for people to contribute, but my value system is probably
broken in many ways. Feel free to block me on GitHub or blame me whenever
I'm being problematic.

> This was brought to the attention of CLC and there was a decision made
yesterday to replace Carter as maintainer of `random` and `vector`
packages. Members of CLC contacted me together with others who participated
in this initiative to improve `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard
Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and myself, and we were asked to take over the
maintainership of `random`. With regards to maintainership of `vector`, it
was offered to Alexey Khudyakov and myself as well.

Thank you very much for describing the situation explicitly. Status of the
part of the ecosystem being obscure was what has been making me anxious;
I'm happy to see that now everyone knows who to get in touch.

Lastly Carter, I acknowledge your substantial contribution to the Haskell
ecosystem and I feel for the stress and diseases you go through. From the
time when I started writing Haskell many years ago, random and vector were
substantial parts of my Haskell experience. I believe that everyone feels
safe to talk about purely technical matters and also how to move things
forward.

2020年6月5日(金) 21:43 Alexey Kuleshevich <alexey at kuleshevi.ch>:

> I believe I was the person who initiated this whole thing therefore I feel
> responsible to make this conversation stop as well.
>
> I totally understand what Carter is going through, my whole family lives
> in the US and I have many friends living in NY. I also understand that
> Carter has various issues, which he has shared with everyone over various
> channels.
>
> Carter, I really do feel compassionate for you and do personally feel bad
> that you have to deal with all those problems. I truly hope that you can
> stay strong and be able to move forward despite them. That being said, I
> also hope you understand that this does not mean that other members of the
> community have to suffer because of it. If you can't do a job, it doesn't
> really matter why, what matters is that you should not stay in a way when
> someone is willing to step up and do it for you.
>
> Many people came forward recognizing multiple issues with a way Carter
> maintained community projects over the years. This was brought to the
> attention of CLC and there was a decision made yesterday to replace Carter
> as maintainer of `random` and `vector` packages. Members of CLC contacted
> me together with others who participated in this initiative to improve
> `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and
> myself, and we were asked to take over the maintainership of `random`. With
> regards to maintainership of `vector`, it was offered to Alexey Khudyakov
> and myself as well.
>
> If I understand correctly Carter is still a member of CLC, and if so he
> still has the authority and responsibilities that any other member of the
> committee possess and he is welcome to continue to oversee our work on
> those packages, but any maintenance related questions please address to
> myself and other maintainers. I personally prefer to keep as much
> communication public for public projects, therefore feel free to get in
> touch me either on newly created gitter: https://gitter.im/haskell/vector or
> on the corresponding issue tracker for more technical discussions.
>
> Sincerely,
> Alexey Kuleshevich
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Friday, June 5, 2020 2:06 PM, Zemyla <zemyla at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So you're saying that the fact that there's basically a civil war and
> pandemic going on is no excuse to respond to e-mails. And you're calling
> his behavior "tyrannous" when there are literal tyrants shooting tear gas
> at civilians.
>
> I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good
> faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a
> little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not
> someone I want anywhere involved in package management.
>
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 02:18 Fumiaki Kinoshita <fumiexcel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For example video call is not a great method for me because of the
>> following reasons:
>>
>> * I'm not a good English speaker (especially I sometimes have difficulty
>> with colloquial American English)
>> * I live in a different timezone
>> * I prefer open communication
>>
>> Although it's totally fine that you have a preference, I have no
>> doubt that core library maintenance should have more acceptance and
>> transparency.
>>
>> I hesitated talking about this because issues might get
>> locked/edited/deleted, and the participants might get accused of being
>> "thick headed assholes" again like you did in
>> https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/267#issuecomment-579588727, but
>> I must say:
>> Frankly, it feels extremely unfair that you ask us to focus on "technical
>> matters" (which excludes maintenance for some reason) only, while you
>> frequently use non-technical reasons (your diseases and the situation in
>> New York) as an excuse. Your asthma doesn't rub me in the wrong way; your
>> tyrannous behaviour does. With all due respect I suggest you not to use
>> CLC privileges to cope with your personal stresses.
>>
>> 2020年6月5日(金) 7:29 Carter Schonwald <carter.schonwald at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a
>>> police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of
>>> stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week
>>> thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <
>>> carter.schonwald at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is
>>>> generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via
>>>> video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..
>>>>
>>>> yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and
>>>> allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way .
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <mail at profpatsch.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> chessai . <chessai1996 at gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via
>>>>> email at
>>>>> > chessai1996 at gmail.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
>>>>> of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
>>>>> talk to a trustee.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <david.feuer at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>>>>> >> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>>>>> >> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <mail at profpatsch.de>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>>>> >>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>>>> >>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot
>>>>> be
>>>>> >>> deleted.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Profpatsch <notifications at github.com> writes:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed,
>>>>> >>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>>>> >>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>>>> >>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists,
>>>>> issue
>>>>> >>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over
>>>>> maintainership of
>>>>> >>> `random` as a base package.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>>>> >>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear
>>>>> for
>>>>> >>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s
>>>>> behaviour is
>>>>> >>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage
>>>>> you to
>>>>> >>> add your voice publicly.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ~ Profpatsch
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Libraries mailing list
>>>>> >>> Libraries at haskell.org
>>>>> >>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >>
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