[Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu,
a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
Paul Hudak
paul.hudak at yale.edu
Wed Jul 2 09:57:40 EDT 2008
Hi Benjamin. I think this is a great idea, for all the reasons you
mention. Starting this fall I will be teaching a two-term computer
music course based on Haskore and HasSound (Haskell libraries for
computer music), and I would love to have an on-line forum that I could
recommend to my students, some of whom will not be hard-core computer
science majors. Thanks for initiating this.
-Paul Hudak
Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses.
>
> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea.
>
> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.
>
> Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe.
>
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>
> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell at haskell.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM
>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on
>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and
>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called
>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing
>> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the
>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but
>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts
>> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea
>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org
>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this
>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here
>> to ask for feedback.
>>
>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would
>> be as follows:
>>
>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the
>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in
>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to
>> in research.
>>
>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students
>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for
>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal
>> arts education, as opposed to an
>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
>>
>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists:
>>
>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for
>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions
>>
>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for
>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious
>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of
>> the language Haskell.
>>
>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for
>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts
>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly
>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have
>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not
>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have
>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not
>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting
>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and
>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the
>> mailing list.
>>
>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a
>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the
>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing
>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow
>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points
>> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this
>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution
>> could be considered independently from the precision of the
>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to
>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar
>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and
>> received the above-mentioned response.)
>>
>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue
>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum,
>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from
>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics
>> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list
>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts
>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for
>> studying functional programming. Currently, the language
>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is
>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has
>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming
>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell
>> may either not have a computer science background, or may
>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts
>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers,
>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find
>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be
>> welcome
>> in a more education-focused context.
>>
>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list,
>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching
>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding
>> questions from students in that context, would help
>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread
>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in
>> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could
>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and
>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background
>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators
>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected
>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science
>> background.
>>
>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>>
>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow
>> <marlowsd at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
>>>
>> list
>>
>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>>>
>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>>
>>> Cc: "John Peterson"
>>>
>> <jpeterson at western.edu>
>>
>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>
>>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list
>>>
>> has
>>
>>> a narrow
>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this
>>>
>> case
>>
>>> you're
>>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it
>>> needs discussion
>>> amongst the community before we create the list, so
>>>
>> that we
>>
>>> can keep a
>>> consistent strategy.
>>>
>>> That's not to say that I disagree with your
>>>
>> proposal.
>>
>>> But it doesn't
>>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and
>>>
>> why
>>
>>> haskell-cafe
>>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that
>>>
>> isn't
>>
>>> clear is whether the
>>> list you're proposing is for people interested in
>>> *teaching* Haskell (in
>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or
>>>
>> people
>>
>>> *learning* Haskell (in
>>> which case I'd consider carefully whether
>>>
>> haskell-cafe
>>
>>> shoudn't be
>>> serving that need). That's something you need to
>>> clarify when proposing
>>> this list to the community.
>>>
>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to
>>> haskell at haskell.org in the
>>> first instance, and see what response you get.
>>>
>> Discussion
>>
>>> should move
>>> to haskell-cafe quickly.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
>>>>
>>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new
>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to
>>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the
>>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
>>>
>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>>>>
>> interested in
>>
>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan
>>>
>> to call
>>
>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research
>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to
>>> non-computer science major students.
>>>
>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>>>>
>> mailing
>>
>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and
>>>
>> Haskell-Cafe
>>
>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is
>>>
>> devoted to
>>
>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research
>>>
>> matters.
>>
>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
>>>
>> academic
>>
>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an
>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science
>>>
>> majors
>>
>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>
>>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request
>>>>
>> you to
>>
>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you
>>>
>> please
>>
>>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
>>>
>>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu
>>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu at haskell.org
>>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing
>>>>
>> List:
>>
>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in
>>> Education
>>>
>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do
>>>>
>> to
>>
>>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on
>>>
>> haskell.org,
>>
>>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
>>>
>> mailing
>>
>>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>>>
>>>> Thank you very much for your time and
>>>>
>> cooperation.
>>
>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>
>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>
>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
>>>>
>>> <jpeterson at western.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> From: John Peterson
>>>>>
>> <jpeterson at western.edu>
>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new
>>>>>
>> Haskell-related
>>
>>> mailing list
>>>
>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>>>>>
>>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing
>>>>>
>>> list. Simon
>>>
>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if
>>>>>
>> you
>>
>>> drop him
>>>
>>>>> and email he'll do the setup for
>>>>>
>> Haskell.org.
>>
>>> Once the
>>>
>>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and
>>>>>
>> add it
>>
>>> to the
>>>
>>>>> appropriate pages.
>>>>>
>>>>> We've had a bunch of these special
>>>>>
>> interest
>>
>>> lists and
>>>
>>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but
>>>>>
>> you
>>
>>> never know
>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>
>>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>>
>>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related
>>>>>
>> mailing
>>
>>> list
>>>
>>>>> To: "John Peterson"
>>>>>
>>> <jpeterson at western.edu>
>>>
>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM
>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>
>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>>>>>
>>> interested in
>>>
>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which
>>>>>
>> I
>>
>>> plan to
>>>
>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
>>>>>
>>> non-research
>>>
>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by
>>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more
>>>>>
>> accessible
>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>>> non-computer science major students. (This
>>>>>
>>> message is
>>>
>>>>> being addressed to you because I had already
>>>>>
>> sent
>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> portion below twice to other administrators
>>>>>
>> at
>>
>>> Haskell.org,
>>>
>>>>> first to mailman-owner at haskell.org, and then
>>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>>> simonmarhaskell at gmail.com, but had not
>>>>>
>> received a
>>
>>> response
>>>
>>>>> on either occasion.)
>>>>>
>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>>>>>
>>> mailing
>>>
>>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell
>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>
>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former
>>>>>
>> is
>>
>>> devoted to
>>>
>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to
>>>>>
>> research
>>
>>> matters.
>>>
>>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is
>>>>>
>> overly
>>
>>> academic
>>>
>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this
>>>>>
>>> creates an
>>>
>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer
>>>>>
>>> science majors
>>>
>>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to
>>>>>
>> do to
>>
>>> start
>>>
>>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on
>>>>>
>>> haskell.org, or
>>>
>>>>> just start it by myself using a
>>>>>
>> non-Haskell.org
>>
>>> mailing
>>>
>>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it
>>>>>
>> listed
>>
>>> in the
>>>
>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo)
>>>>>
>> page for
>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell
>>>>>
>> community?
>>
>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and
>>>>>
>> cooperation.
>>
>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell mailing list
>> Haskell at haskell.org
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell mailing list
> Haskell at haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/attachments/20080702/10af09c8/attachment-0001.htm
More information about the Haskell
mailing list