[Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Wed Jul 2 09:14:18 EDT 2008

I would certainly join such a list. My only concer would be that
moderating such a list could be tricky. How do you judge when a
discussion has become "too technical"? And what do you do about it?
Force the members to take it to -cafe? Anyway, I like the idea of
having a more beginner-friendly list, and have suggested something
similar for the IRC channel multiple times.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Benjamin L. Russell
<dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:
> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses.
>
> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react.  Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea.
>
> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.  Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.
>
> Please post your responses initially in this thread.  After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe.
>
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>
> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell at haskell.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM
>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on
>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and
>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called
>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing
>> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the
>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but
>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts
>> education, on a par with Scheme.  When I suggested the idea
>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org
>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this
>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here
>> to ask for feedback.
>>
>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would
>> be as follows:
>>
>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the
>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in
>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to
>> in research.
>>
>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students
>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for
>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal
>> arts education, as opposed to an
>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
>>
>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists:
>>
>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for
>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions
>>
>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for
>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious
>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of
>> the language Haskell.
>>
>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for
>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts
>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly
>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have
>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not
>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have
>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not
>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting
>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and
>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the
>> mailing list.
>>
>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a
>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the
>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing
>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow
>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points
>> randomly from a square in approximating pi.  Avoiding this
>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution
>> could be considered independently from the precision of the
>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to
>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar
>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and
>> received the above-mentioned response.)
>>
>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue
>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum,
>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from
>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics
>> background.  The primary audience of this new mailing list
>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts
>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for
>> studying functional programming.  Currently, the language
>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is
>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has
>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming
>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell
>> may either not have a computer science background, or may
>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background.  Posts
>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers,
>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find
>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be
>> welcome
>>  in a more education-focused context.
>>
>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list,
>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching
>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding
>> questions from students in that context, would help
>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread
>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in
>> industry.  Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could
>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and
>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background
>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators
>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected
>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science
>> background.
>>
>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>>
>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow
>> <marlowsd at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
>> list
>> > To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>> > Cc: "John Peterson"
>> <jpeterson at western.edu>
>> > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
>> > Hi Benjamin,
>> >
>> > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list
>> has
>> > a narrow
>> > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche.  In this
>> case
>> > you're
>> > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it
>> > needs discussion
>> > amongst the community before we create the list, so
>> that we
>> > can keep a
>> > consistent strategy.
>> >
>> > That's not to say that I disagree with your
>> proposal.
>> > But it doesn't
>> > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and
>> why
>> > haskell-cafe
>> > shouldn't serve the purpose.  One thing that
>> isn't
>> > clear is whether the
>> > list you're proposing is for people interested in
>> > *teaching* Haskell (in
>> > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or
>> people
>> > *learning* Haskell (in
>> > which case I'd consider carefully whether
>> haskell-cafe
>> > shoudn't be
>> > serving that need).  That's something you need to
>> > clarify when proposing
>> > this list to the community.
>> >
>> > So I suggest you send this proposal out to
>> > haskell at haskell.org in the
>> > first instance, and see what response you get.
>> Discussion
>> > should move
>> > to haskell-cafe quickly.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >     Simon
>> >
>> > Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>> > > Greetings,
>> > >
>> > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
>> > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new
>> > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to
>> > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the
>> > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
>> > >
>> > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>> interested in
>> > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan
>> to call
>> > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research
>> > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>> > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to
>> > non-computer science major students.
>> > >
>> > > This topic is not covered by any of the other
>> mailing
>> > lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and
>> Haskell-Cafe
>> > for the past six months or so, but the former is
>> devoted to
>> > announcements, and the latter de facto to research
>> matters.
>> >  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
>> academic
>> > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an
>> > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science
>> majors
>> > interested in learning Haskell.
>> > >
>> > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request
>> you to
>> > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you
>> please
>> > set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
>> > >
>> > > Name of Mailing List:  Haskell-Edu
>> > > E-mail Address:        haskell-edu at haskell.org
>> > > Description:           The Haskell-Edu Mailing
>> List:
>> > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in
>> > Education
>> > >
>> > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do
>> to
>> > start this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>> haskell.org,
>> > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
>> mailing
>> > list service?  Also, how should I have it listed in
>> the
>> > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>> > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
>> > benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>> > >
>> > > Thank you very much for your time and
>> cooperation.
>> > >
>> > > Sincerely yours,
>> > >
>> > > Benjamin L. Russell
>> > >
>> > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
>> > <jpeterson at western.edu> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> From: John Peterson
>> <jpeterson at western.edu>
>> > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new
>> Haskell-related
>> > mailing list
>> > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>> > <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>> > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
>> > >> Hi Benjamin,
>> > >>
>> > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing
>> > list.  Simon
>> > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if
>> you
>> > drop him
>> > >> and email he'll do the setup for
>> Haskell.org.
>> > Once the
>> > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and
>> add it
>> > to the
>> > >> appropriate pages.
>> > >>
>> > >> We've had a bunch of these special
>> interest
>> > lists and
>> > >> most of them go dead after a few months but
>> you
>> > never know
>> > >> ...
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>    John
>> > >
>> > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
>> > <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell
>> > <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>> > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related
>> mailing
>> > list
>> > >> To: "John Peterson"
>> > <jpeterson at western.edu>
>> > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM
>> > >> Greetings,
>> > >>
>> > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>> > interested in
>> > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which
>> I
>> > plan to
>> > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
>> > non-research
>> > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by
>> the
>> > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more
>> accessible
>> > to
>> > >> non-computer science major students.  (This
>> > message is
>> > >> being addressed to you because I had already
>> sent
>> > the
>> > >> portion below twice to other administrators
>> at
>> > Haskell.org,
>> > >> first to mailman-owner at haskell.org, and then
>> to
>> > >> simonmarhaskell at gmail.com, but had not
>> received a
>> > response
>> > >> on either occasion.)
>> > >>
>> > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>> > mailing
>> > >> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell
>> and
>> > Haskell-Cafe
>> > >> for the past six months or so, but the former
>> is
>> > devoted to
>> > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to
>> research
>> > matters.
>> > >>  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is
>> overly
>> > academic
>> > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this
>> > creates an
>> > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer
>> > science majors
>> > >> interested in learning Haskell.
>> > >>
>> > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to
>> do to
>> > start
>> > >> this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>> > haskell.org, or
>> > >> just start it by myself using a
>> non-Haskell.org
>> > mailing
>> > >> list service?  Also, how should I have it
>> listed
>> > in the
>> > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>> > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo)
>> page for
>> > the
>> > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell
>> community?
>> > >>
>> > >> Thank you very much for your time and
>> cooperation.
>> > >>
>> > >> Sincerely yours,
>> > >>
>> > >> Benjamin L. Russell
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell mailing list
>> Haskell at haskell.org
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
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