[Haskell-cafe] Investing in languages (Was: What is yourfavouriteHaskell "aha" moment?)
PY
aquagnu at gmail.com
Fri Jul 13 07:07:41 UTC 2018
12.07.2018 23:48, Chris Smith wrote:
> This is a good question, and I think it depends on your goals.
>
> If your goal is to inspire interest and attract children to
> programming, then you are best served by making it obvious what can
> and can't be done, and making it very difficult to make a mistake.
> Some visual languages are very good at this, and Scratch, for example,
> is a good example. Going even further, Scratch and similar languages
> are often used in situations where the students can do literally
> anything, and *something* interesting happens, inspiring that spark of
> excitement and feeling of "I did that!" This is a magical moment, and
> it can change lives.
>
> On the other hand, building new skills is the point of educating.
> Avoiding the need for new skills means avoiding the opportunity to
> learn. Children often still struggle with precise perception. I've
> seen plenty of students as old as 12 to 13 who literally cannot see
> whether there's a comma in an expression, or whether a word is spelled
> "ie" or "ei", without extreme measures like covering the surrounding
> text. Their brain just skips over these concerns. Of course, they
> struggle in mathematics, and also basic language and communication.
> Once again, one can avoid the problem and try to help them to be
> successful
Yes! Even more, mature brain has such selectivity too :)
We can miss something totally, because most people are thinking in
traditional, standard ways (something like good known roads) and will
not take new knowledge but will dispute with new knowledge and to try to
ignore it or "destroy it mentally", but this is a slightly different
disease ;)
> without needing that skill, which a visual language is great at. But
> of course, they ultimately do need the skill in order to communicate
> in the first place! So there's also value in placing them in an
> environment where they need to learn it. When making this decision,
> though, it's important to focus on skills that are truly necessary,
> and not (for example) remembering what order to write "public static
> void main" in their Java programs.
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 2:16 PM Paul <aquagnu at gmail.com
> <mailto:aquagnu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Wooow! Yes!!
>
> But today there is serious competition (Smalltalk, Python; I
> planned Scratch – but it’s for children of 7-9 years). I thing you
> are good teacher 😊
>
> Btw, what do you think: what is better – textual programming or
> visual programming for children? For me, Labview/G was insight in
> 90s 😊Today there is Luna language – it’s visual too. IMHO visual
> programming better illustrates ideas/concepts, or?
>
> *From: *Chris Smith <mailto:cdsmith at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *12 июля 2018 г. 21:00
> *To: *aquagnu at gmail.com <mailto:aquagnu at gmail.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Haskell-cafe] Investing in languages (Was: What is
> yourfavouriteHaskell "aha" moment?)
>
> Perhaps you mean something fun and visual like this?
> https://code.world/#PhFFj32Bx0FcpQvvoVJW0xw
>
> Or this? https://code.world/#PO1BKCj-kA9ztKKnE7rOueA
>
> These are written in the simplified variant of Haskell that I
> teach, which uses a custom Prelude that skips type classes and
> other advanced features, uses rebindable syntax to simplify types
> (for example, you'll see Number instead of Int, Double, etc.), and
> automatically provides graphics functions that work in the browser.
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:54 PM Paul <aquagnu at gmail.com
> <mailto:aquagnu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hmm, Chris, thanks for answer. Interesting. I was surprised
> when I first learned that someone somewhere is teaching the
> children to Haskell, but if you say so – then it’s possible
> and may be it’s good! 😊
>
> Sometimes children don’t like right things, but like fun. So,
> I though that more preferable to show them some bright demo:
> UI, graphics, some simple games, databases, to rise the
> interest, you know – this feeling of first code. First “wooow!
> It works!!!” 😊Haskell, for me, looks pedantic, not for fun.
> May be I’m not right, I have not such experience.
>
> *From: *Chris Smith <mailto:cdsmith at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *12 июля 2018 г. 19:59
> *To: *aquagnu at gmail.com <mailto:aquagnu at gmail.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Haskell-cafe] Investing in languages (Was:
> What is yourfavourite Haskell "aha" moment?)
>
> I'll answer this, since I have been teaching Haskell to
> children for six years or so. :)
>
> I think it's important to distinguish between Haskell AS USED
> in most of the community, and Haskell as it COULD be used. I
> agree that you don't want to teach the first of those to
> children. But Haskell is still a great teaching choice,
> mainly because GHC is so configurable that you can create the
> environment you want, and just build it with a Haskell
> compiler. With GHC plugins, this is becoming even more true,
> but it already arises from a combination of (a) very
> lightweight and intuitive core syntax in the first place, (b)
> great support for custom preludes, and (c) the
> RebindableSyntax extension, and the fact that so much syntax
> is defined in terms of desugaring.
>
> If you're seriously talking about teaching children, then your
> concerns about web frameworks and such are a bit silly.
> (Unless by "children" you meant mid to late teens and after,
> in which case this becomes relevant.) "Advanced" type
> features are also not particularly relevant (though there's
> some fuzziness about what counts as "advanced"; for instance,
> I've recently decided it's better to teach GADT syntax as the
> only option for defining algebraic data types, even though I
> never expect most students to take advantage of the extra
> power of GADTs.)
>
> The main concern I have with F#, though, is that the semantics
> are far too complex. It has all the power of a functional
> language, but none of the semantic simplicity. If students
> already struggle with compositional programming (and they do),
> they struggle even more when the simplest way to understand
> what's going on -- namely, substitution -- is taken away from
> them. If you're going to teach a computational model based on
> sequencing actions on a global state (the state being the
> screen, network, etc.), then you might as well include mutable
> variables in that global state, and you might as well teach
> Python, which will at least be more intuitive, if not simpler.
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:46 AM PY <aquagnu at gmail.com
> <mailto:aquagnu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I am afraid that it can lead to flame again, but F# has
> super-capacity: you can check measuring units, type
> providers, computation expressions, active patterns,
> static/dynamic types constraints, constraints on existing
> method, etc... It's clean, borrows some ideas from
> Haskell, some are original and Haskell borrows them (but
> with worse implementation). IMHO for children teaching to
> FP F# is the best. Even more, currently C# also has a lot
> of FP features
> (https://github.com/dotnet/csharplang/blob/master/proposals/patterns.md#arithmetic-simplification
> -- is not it super easy and beauty?). Rust is more low
> level: you should think about memory "management", OOP has
> some problems... And serious argument for children
> teaching: salary trends (joke sure) :-) But you can
> compare salary in F# and Haskell, for example - people
> often choice language after check current salaries in the
> market. Also F# is more focused on realistic tasks and
> business value. It lacks performance, UWP yet (but in
> progress)... To feel how F# is sexy compare Web
> application written in Websharper and in any Haskell
> framework. Haskell is beauty but I'm afraid its fate
> unfortunately will be the same as one of Common Lisp,
> NetBSD, etc - it's ground for ideas and experiments and
> has disputable design. Also it's more-more difficult to
> teach children to Haskell than to F#...
>
> IMHO is general to teach FP is more easy than to teach OOP
> if FP is not Haskell (some language which targets more
> eager/efficient/dynamic/real goals instead of abstract
> types playing).
>
> 12.07.2018 13:28, Vanessa McHale wrote:
>
> I wouldn't say Rust has a large capacity for FP. I am not familiar with
>
> F#. The thing that makes FP infeasible in Rust is not the lack of purity
>
> but rather the fact that affine types make it difficult to treat
>
> functions as first-class values.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 07/12/2018 01:40 AM, Brett Gilio wrote:
>
> Tony,
>
>
>
> I am curious on your attitude towards multi-paradigm and ML-like
>
> languages. I agree that functional programming is easily the better of
>
> the bundle in many forms of application logic and elegance (which is
>
> why I have come to love Scheme and Haskell), but do you see any room
>
> for those languages like F# or Rust which have large capacities for FP
>
> but are either functional-first (but not pure) or a hybrid?
>
>
>
> Brett Gilio
>
>
>
> On 07/12/2018 01:35 AM, Tony Morris wrote:
>
> I used to teach undergrad OOP nonsense. I have been teaching FP for 15
>
> years. [^1]
>
>
>
> The latter is *way* easier. Existing programmers are more difficult than
>
> children, but still way easier to teach FP than all the other stuff.
>
>
>
> [^1]: Canberra anyone?https://qfpl.io/posts/2018-canberra-intro-to-fp/
>
>
>
>
>
> On 07/12/2018 04:23 PM, Joachim Durchholz wrote:
>
> Am 11.07.2018 um 16:36 schrieb Damian Nadales:
>
>
>
> I speak only from my own narrow perspective. I'd say programming is
>
> hard, but functional programming is harder.
>
>
>
> Actually it's pretty much the opposite, I hear from teachers.
>
>
>
> Maybe that's why Java replaced Haskell in some universities
>
> curricula
>
> The considerations are marketable skills.
>
> A considerable fraction of students is looking at the curriculum and
>
> at job offers, and if they find that the lists don't match, they will
>
> go to another university.
>
> Also, industry keeps lobbying for teaching skills that they can use.
>
> Industry can give money to universities so this gives them influence
>
> on the curriculum (and only if they get time to talk the topic over
>
> with the dean). This aspect can vary considerably between countries,
>
> depending on how much money the universities tend to acquire from
>
> industry.
>
>
>
> https://chrisdone.com/posts/dijkstra-haskell-java. For some reason
>
> most programmers I know are not scared of learning OO, but they fear
>
> functional programming.
>
>
>
> Programmers were *very* scared of OO in the nineties. It took roughly
>
> a decade or two (depending on where you put the starting point) to get
>
> comfortable with OO.
>
>
>
>
>
> I think the reason might be that OO concepts
>
> like inheritance and passing messages between objects are a bit more
>
> concrete and easier to grasp (when you present toy examples at least).
>
>
>
> OO is about how to deal with having to pack everything into its own
>
> class (and how to arrange stuff into classes).
>
> Functional is about how to deal with the inability to update. Here,
>
> the functional camp actually has the easier job, because you can just
>
> tell people to just write code that creates new data objects and get
>
> over with it. Performance concerns can be handwaved away by saying
>
> that the compiler is hyper-aggressive, and "you can look at the
>
> intermediate code if you suspect the compiler is the issue".
>
> (Functional is a bit similar to SQL here, but the SQL optimizers are
>
> much less competent than GHC at detecting optimization opportunities.)
>
>
>
> Then you have design patterns, which have intuitive names and give
>
> some very general guidelines that one can try after reading them (and
>
> add his/her own personal twist). I doubt people can read the Monad
>
> laws and make any sense out of them at the first try.
>
>
>
> That's true, but much of the misconceptions around monads from the
>
> first days have been cleared up.
>
> But yes the monad laws are too hard to read. OTOH you won't be able to
>
> read the Tree code in the JDK without the explanations either.
>
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