Open up the issues tracker on ghc-proposals

[Simon Peyton Jones]

I can volunteer to at least scrape together all the objections to ScopedTypeVariables as currently. It's not yet a proposal, so not on github. Start a wiki page? A cafe thread? (It'll get lost.) A ghc-users thread? (It'll get ignored.)

That’s a fair question.  We have lots of forums, but your point is that certain sorts of discussions never get going with the right audience – you especially point to “confused beginners”.

I don’t know how to engage that audience effectively, and by definition I’m the wrong person even to have a well-informed view.   It’s quite a challenge because beginners tend not to be vocal, and yet they are a crucial set of Haskell users.  Every Haskell user started as a beginner.

The title of this thread, “Open up the issues tracker on ghc-proposals”, identifies a solution rather than a problem.  Perhaps a constructive place to start would be to articulate the challenge directly, in a new thread, and invite input from others about whether it’s a problem they encounter, and what possible solutions might be?

Thanks!

Simon

From: Glasgow-haskell-users <glasgow-haskell-users-bounces at haskell.org> On Behalf Of Anthony Clayden
Sent: 03 May 2018 00:17
To: GHC users <glasgow-haskell-users at haskell.org>
Cc: Joachim Breitner <mail at joachim-breitner.de>
Subject: Re: Open up the issues tracker on ghc-proposals

On Th, 3 May 2018 at 13:53 UTC, Joachim Breitner wrote:
…

> hmm, some of that sounds like it would be better suited for haskell-cafe, StackOverflow, ...

My point about "sometimes it's more of a niggle" was aimed at exactly your (Joachim's) series of proposals 'Resurrect Pattern Signatures'. The motivation is it helps "confused beginners". But those beginners won't be providing feedback on github. Instead you've got feedback from experienced users who've all said they see no point in the proposal. So the discussion has gone round and round and spun off other proposals. That whole series of discussions would be better happening somewhere else: where?

David's quite correct
>> Haskell-cafe might work, but it's a bit tricky to pull up all the language extension ideas discussed there.

My impression is not many people who could help refine a pre-proposal ever take part in the cafe.

Stackoverflow likewise. (I did raise a 'how do I do this?' type question there. It was David who responded, thank you. But I ended up answering it myself; and it turned out there was already a proposal on the slate.)

>> My limited experience with glasgow-haskell-users is that it's where threads go to die.

(I did try to continue one of David's threads there a few months ago.) But yes, my experience too. And that's sad because it's a wasted resource. I'm grateful to Simon for noticing this thread; but most topics I've raised on ghc-users have gone nowhere. So then I've tried pursuing them by poaching on Trac or github -- which is an abuse, I know.

> Most vague ideas get better when the proposer is nudged to sit down and write it up properly! (And some get dropped in the process, which is also good :-)).

Yes exactly what I'm trying to get to happen. How/where?

Here's a specific example: there's talk of baking ScopedTypeVariables into the H2020 standard. There's also people unhappy with ScopedTypeVariables as currently (I'm one, but I don't know if my reservations are the same as others'). If we don't have an alternative proposal (and preferably an experimental extension) by 2020, the committee can only go with the as currently fait accompli or continue the H2010 status quo.

I can volunteer to at least scrape together all the objections to ScopedTypeVariables as currently. It's not yet a proposal, so not on github. Start a wiki page? A cafe thread? (It'll get lost.) A ghc-users thread? (It'll get ignored.)


AntC


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