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<span style="background:white">I can volunteer to at least scrape together all the objections to ScopedTypeVariables as currently. It's not yet a proposal, so not on github. Start a wiki page? A cafe thread? (It'll get lost.) A ghc-users thread? (It'll get
ignored.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">That’s a fair question. We have lots of forums, but your point is that certain sorts of discussions never get going with the right audience – you especially point to “confused beginners”.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I don’t know how to engage that audience effectively, and by definition I’m the wrong person even to have a well-informed view. It’s quite a challenge because beginners tend not to be vocal, and yet they
are a crucial set of Haskell users. Every Haskell user started as a beginner.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">The title of this thread, “Open up the issues tracker on ghc-proposals”, identifies a
<i>solution</i> rather than a <i>problem</i>. Perhaps a constructive place to start would be to articulate the challenge directly, in a new thread, and invite input from others about whether it’s a problem they encounter, and what possible solutions might
be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Simon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Glasgow-haskell-users <glasgow-haskell-users-bounces@haskell.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Anthony Clayden<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 May 2018 00:17<br>
<b>To:</b> GHC users <glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Joachim Breitner <mail@joachim-breitner.de><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Open up the issues tracker on ghc-proposals<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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On Th, 3 May 2018 at 13:53 UTC, Joachim Breitner wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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…<o:p></o:p></p>
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> <span style="background:white">hmm, some of that sounds like it would be better suited for haskell-cafe, StackOverflow, ...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="background:white">My point about "sometimes it's more of a niggle" was aimed at exactly your (Joachim's) series of proposals 'Resurrect Pattern Signatures'. The motivation is it helps "confused beginners". But those beginners won't be providing
feedback on github. Instead you've got feedback from experienced users who've all said they see no point in the proposal. So the discussion has gone round and round and spun off other proposals. That whole series of discussions would be better happening somewhere
else: where?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="background:white">David's quite correct</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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>> Haskell-cafe might work, but it's a bit tricky to pull up all the language extension ideas discussed there.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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My impression is not many people who could help refine a pre-proposal ever take part in the cafe.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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Stackoverflow likewise. (I did raise a 'how do I do this?' type question there. It was David who responded, thank you. But I ended up answering it myself; and it turned out there was already a proposal on the slate.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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>> My limited experience with glasgow-haskell-users is that it's where threads go to die. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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(I did try to continue one of David's threads there a few months ago.) But yes, my experience too. And that's sad because it's a wasted resource. I'm grateful to Simon for noticing this thread; but most topics I've raised on ghc-users have gone nowhere. So
then I've tried pursuing them by poaching on Trac or github -- which is an abuse, I know.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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> <span style="background:white">Most vague ideas get better when the proposer is nudged to sit down and write it up properly! (And some get dropped in the process, which is also good :-)).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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<span style="background:white">Yes exactly what I'm trying to get to happen. How/where?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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<span style="background:white">Here's a specific example: there's talk of baking ScopedTypeVariables into the H2020 standard. There's also people unhappy with ScopedTypeVariables as currently (I'm one, but I don't know if my reservations are the same as others').
If we don't have an alternative proposal (and preferably an experimental extension) by 2020, the committee can only go with the as currently fait accompli or continue the H2010 status quo.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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<span style="background:white">I can volunteer to at least scrape together all the objections to ScopedTypeVariables as currently. It's not yet a proposal, so not on github. Start a wiki page? A cafe thread? (It'll get lost.) A ghc-users thread? (It'll get
ignored.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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AntC<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre style="background:white;white-space:pre-wrap"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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