[Haskell-beginners] Fwd: GHC 7.10 Prelude: we need your opinion

Tue Feb 10 22:18:27 UTC 2015

This is not ironic. This is the experience of hundreds of beginners. I 
can point to them from here. FTP supports beginners and teaching.

On 11/02/15 08:15, Julian Birch wrote:
> Ironically, as a beginner, I supported FTP. As a beginner, I don't 
> need to worry about legacy compatibility, but I do worry about 
> cognitive overload. And actually, for someone coming from almost any 
> other language, having a non-general fold is a speedbump for me.
>
> As for sequence in its full generality, I don't know if I completely 
> grasp it, but the basic idea of swapping two typeclasses around I 
> found the first time I hoogled for something that did exactly that.
>
> J
>
> On 10 February 2015 at 16:46, Kim-Ee Yeoh <ky3 at atamo.com 
> <mailto:ky3 at atamo.com>> wrote:
>
>     Simon PJ missed out the haskell-beginners list, but I encourage
>     you to fill out the survey below as well.
>
>     Now you may ask, "Well, I'm still learning haskell and I don't
>     know enough."
>
>     But consider that by being on this list and by haskelling whatever
>     you may consider as utterly insignificant, you're still waaaaaaaay
>     ahead than those who have yet to reach haskell at all.
>
>     Your opinion counts.
>
>     Because those _after_ you will help provide jobs by creating
>     haskell projects, just like you.
>
>     But unlike them, you get to influence the haskell of tomorrow that
>     will be their first encounter, whether that would be a haskell
>     that's friendlier or more @#$%^& than what it is today.
>
>     The survey link is here: *http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX
>     *
>
>     Summaries (each quite long) are here:
>
>     ·Overall summary: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710
>     <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE1p5w-YCXC7ixebvwObayuV7Ut4w>
>
>
>     ·Details of Plan List:
>     https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
>     <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FList&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHaufeSwtIsvZwdVXwP9F9G45zLSA>
>
>     ·Details of Plan FTP:
>     https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/FTP
>     <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FFTP&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHbhNyIwAbcOd3JfikIhD6S7rc-vw>
>
>     Fwiw, I voted to delay FTP. In fact, here's what I wrote:
>
>     "FTP is rushed and potentially unstable. I don't think we
>     understand all about Traversable that we think we do, which might
>     mean another big Prelude overhaul in the future.
>
>     Actually, FTP doesn't even belong in 7.12 per se. It belongs in a
>     new Haskell language standard and if that coincides with GHC 7.12,
>     great. If not, it can wait for GHC 8.x and up."
>
>     Because I've been keeping tabs on FTP I wrote my opinion without
>     perusing the summaries, but on doing so later, I stumbled upon the
>     following points that happen to reflect my exact observations,
>     points that are relevant to learning haskell and growing the
>     haskell community:
>
>     https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
>
>       * The existing corpus of books, tutorials, syllabi, and the like
>         usually have a significant portion of the text dedicated to
>         these very Prelude functions - and they would all need
>         significant revision.
>
>       * Teaching beginners what sequence means in its full generality
>         is going to be a challenge.
>
>       * While teaching beginners who end up on #haskell IRC might be
>         possible, this is likely to increase the "bounce" rate, people
>         who see Haskell, play around, and run away scared. I think
>         Haskell probably has a higher bounce rate than most other
>         languages, making it worse would be bad.
>
>
>     Whether you agree or disagree with the above, now's the time to
>     make yourself heard. The survey closes Feb 21.
>
>     p.s. Needless to say, feel free to discuss FTP on this list should
>     your opinion need a sounding board and a bit of time (not too
>     long!) to firm up.
>
>     -- Kim-Ee
>
>     ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>     From: *Simon Peyton Jones* <simonpj at microsoft.com
>     <mailto:simonpj at microsoft.com>>
>     Date: Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:50 PM
>     Subject: GHC 7.10 Prelude: we need your opinion
>     To: "haskell at haskell.org <mailto:haskell at haskell.org>"
>     <haskell at haskell.org <mailto:haskell at haskell.org>>, "Haskell Cafe
>     (haskell-cafe at haskell.org <mailto:haskell-cafe at haskell.org>)"
>     <haskell-cafe at haskell.org <mailto:haskell-cafe at haskell.org>>, GHC
>     users <glasgow-haskell-users at haskell.org
>     <mailto:glasgow-haskell-users at haskell.org>>, "ghc-devs at haskell.org
>     <mailto:ghc-devs at haskell.org>" <ghc-devs at haskell.org
>     <mailto:ghc-devs at haskell.org>>
>
>
>     Haskell Friends
>
>     *This email asks for your help in deciding how to proceed with
>     some Prelude changes in GHC 7.10. Please read on, but all the info
>     is also at the survey link, here: http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX.
>     Deadline is 21 Feb.*
>
>     The Core Libraries Committee (CLC) is responsible for developing
>     the core libraries that ship with GHC. This is an important but
>     painstaking task, and we owe the CLC a big vote of thanks for
>     taking it on.
>
>     For over a year the CLC has been working on integrating the
>     *Foldable and Traversable classes* (shipped in base in GHC 7.8)
>     into the core libraries, and into the Prelude in particular.
>     Detailed planning for GHC 7.10 started in the autumn of 2014, and
>     the CLC went ahead with this integration.
>
>     Then we had a failure of communication.  As these changes affect
>     the Prelude, which is in scope for all users of Haskell, these
>     changes should be held to a higher bar than the regular libraries@
>     review process.  However, the Foldable/Traversable changes were
>     not particularly well signposted. Many people have only recently
>     woken up to them, and some have objected (both in principle and
>     detail).
>
>     This is an extremely unfortunate situation. On the one hand we are
>     at RC2 for GHC 7.10, so library authors have invested effort in
>     updating their libraries to the new Prelude. On the other,
>     altering the Prelude is in effect altering the language, something
>     we take pretty seriously. We should have had this debate back in
>     2014, but here we are, and it is unproductive to argue about whose
>     fault it is. We all share responsibility.
>
>     We need to decide what to do now. A small group of us met by Skype
>     and we've decided to do this:
>
>     ·Push back GHC 7.10's release by at least a month, to late March. 
>     This delay also gives us breathing space to address an unrelated
>     show-stopping bug, Trac #9858.
>
>     ·Invite input from the Haskell community on which of two
>     approaches to adopt (this survey
>     <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>).  The main questions revolve
>     around impact on the Haskell ecosystem (commercial applications,
>     teaching, libraries, etc etc), so we want to ask your opinion
>     rather than guess it.
>
>     ·Ask Simon Marlow and Simon Peyton Jones to decide which approach
>     to follow for GHC 7.10.
>
>     Wiki pages have been created summarizing these two primary
>     alternatives, including many more points and counter-points and
>     technical details:
>
>     ·Overall summary: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710
>     <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE1p5w-YCXC7ixebvwObayuV7Ut4w>
>
>     ·Details of Plan List:
>     https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
>     <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FList&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHaufeSwtIsvZwdVXwP9F9G45zLSA>
>
>     ·Details of Plan FTP:
>     https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/FTP
>     <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FFTP&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHbhNyIwAbcOd3JfikIhD6S7rc-vw>
>
>     This survey invites your input on which plan we should follow.
>     Would you please
>
>     ·Read the details of the alternative plans on the three wiki pages
>     above
>
>     ·Add your response to the survey <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>
>
>     Please do read the background.  Well-informed responses will
>     help.  Thank you!
>
>     *DEADLINE: 21 February 2015*
>
>     Simon PJ
>
>
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>
>
>
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