[Haskell-beginners] Fwd: GHC 7.10 Prelude: we need your opinion

Tue Feb 10 22:15:37 UTC 2015

Ironically, as a beginner, I supported FTP. As a beginner, I don't need to
worry about legacy compatibility, but I do worry about cognitive overload.
And actually, for someone coming from almost any other language, having a
non-general fold is a speedbump for me.

As for sequence in its full generality, I don't know if I completely grasp
it, but the basic idea of swapping two typeclasses around I found the first
time I hoogled for something that did exactly that.

J

On 10 February 2015 at 16:46, Kim-Ee Yeoh <ky3 at atamo.com> wrote:

> Simon PJ missed out the haskell-beginners list, but I encourage you to
> fill out the survey below as well.
>
> Now you may ask, "Well, I'm still learning haskell and I don't know
> enough."
>
> But consider that by being on this list and by haskelling whatever you may
> consider as utterly insignificant, you're still waaaaaaaay ahead than those
> who have yet to reach haskell at all.
>
> Your opinion counts.
>
> Because those _after_ you will help provide jobs by creating haskell
> projects, just like you.
>
> But unlike them, you get to influence the haskell of tomorrow that will be
> their first encounter, whether that would be a haskell that's friendlier or
> more @#$%^& than what it is today.
>
> The survey link is here:
> *http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>*
>
> Summaries (each quite long) are here:
>
> ·         Overall summary:
> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE1p5w-YCXC7ixebvwObayuV7Ut4w>
>
> ·         Details of Plan List:
> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FList&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHaufeSwtIsvZwdVXwP9F9G45zLSA>
> ·         Details of Plan FTP:
> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/FTP
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FFTP&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHbhNyIwAbcOd3JfikIhD6S7rc-vw>
>
> Fwiw, I voted to delay FTP. In fact, here's what I wrote:
>
> "FTP is rushed and potentially unstable. I don't think we understand all
> about Traversable that we think we do, which might mean another big Prelude
> overhaul in the future.
>
> Actually, FTP doesn't even belong in 7.12 per se. It belongs in a new
> Haskell language standard and if that coincides with GHC 7.12, great. If
> not, it can wait for GHC 8.x and up."
>
> Because I've been keeping tabs on FTP I wrote my opinion without perusing
> the summaries, but on doing so later, I stumbled upon the following points
> that happen to reflect my exact observations, points that are relevant to
> learning haskell and growing the haskell community:
>
> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
>
>
>    - The existing corpus of books, tutorials, syllabi, and the like
>    usually have a significant portion of the text dedicated to these very
>    Prelude functions - and they would all need significant revision.
>
>
>    - Teaching beginners what sequence means in its full generality is
>    going to be a challenge.
>
>
>    - While teaching beginners who end up on #haskell IRC might be
>    possible, this is likely to increase the "bounce" rate, people who see
>    Haskell, play around, and run away scared. I think Haskell probably has a
>    higher bounce rate than most other languages, making it worse would be bad.
>
>
> Whether you agree or disagree with the above, now's the time to make
> yourself heard. The survey closes Feb 21.
>
> p.s. Needless to say, feel free to discuss FTP on this list should your
> opinion need a sounding board and a bit of time (not too long!) to firm up.
>
> -- Kim-Ee
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
> Date: Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:50 PM
> Subject: GHC 7.10 Prelude: we need your opinion
> To: "haskell at haskell.org" <haskell at haskell.org>, "Haskell Cafe (
> haskell-cafe at haskell.org)" <haskell-cafe at haskell.org>, GHC users <
> glasgow-haskell-users at haskell.org>, "ghc-devs at haskell.org" <
> ghc-devs at haskell.org>
>
>
>  Haskell Friends
>
> *This email asks for your help in deciding how to proceed with some
> Prelude changes in GHC 7.10.  Please read on, but all the info is also at
> the survey link, here: http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX
> <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>.   Deadline is 21 Feb.*
>
>
>
> The Core Libraries Committee (CLC) is responsible for developing the core
> libraries that ship with GHC. This is an important but painstaking task,
> and we owe the CLC a big vote of thanks for taking it on.
>
> For over a year the CLC has been working on integrating the *Foldable and
> Traversable classes* (shipped in base in GHC 7.8) into the core
> libraries, and into the Prelude in particular. Detailed planning for GHC
> 7.10 started in the autumn of 2014, and the CLC went ahead with this
> integration.
>
> Then we had a failure of communication.  As these changes affect the
> Prelude, which is in scope for all users of Haskell, these changes should
> be held to a higher bar than the regular libraries@ review process.
> However, the Foldable/Traversable changes were not particularly well
> signposted. Many people have only recently woken up to them, and some have
> objected (both in principle and detail).
>
> This is an extremely unfortunate situation. On the one hand we are at RC2
> for GHC 7.10, so library authors have invested effort in updating their
> libraries to the new Prelude. On the other, altering the Prelude is in
> effect altering the language, something we take pretty seriously. We should
> have had this debate back in 2014, but here we are, and it is unproductive
> to argue about whose fault it is. We all share responsibility.
>
> We need to decide what to do now. A small group of us met by Skype and
> we've decided to do this:
>
> ·         Push back GHC 7.10's release by at least a month, to late
> March.  This delay also gives us breathing space to address an unrelated
> show-stopping bug, Trac #9858.
>
> ·         Invite input from the Haskell community on which of two
> approaches to adopt (this survey <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>).  The
> main questions revolve around impact on the Haskell ecosystem (commercial
> applications, teaching, libraries, etc etc), so we want to ask your opinion
> rather than guess it.
>
> ·         Ask Simon Marlow and Simon Peyton Jones to decide which
> approach to follow for GHC 7.10.
>
> Wiki pages have been created summarizing these two primary alternatives,
> including many more points and counter-points and technical details:
>
> ·         Overall summary:
> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE1p5w-YCXC7ixebvwObayuV7Ut4w>
>
> ·         Details of Plan List:
> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FList&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHaufeSwtIsvZwdVXwP9F9G45zLSA>
>
> ·         Details of Plan FTP:
> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/FTP
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FFTP&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHbhNyIwAbcOd3JfikIhD6S7rc-vw>
>
> This survey invites your input on which plan we should follow. Would you
> please
>
> ·         Read the details of the alternative plans on the three wiki
> pages above
>
> ·         Add your response to the survey <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>
>
> Please do read the background.  Well-informed responses will help.  Thank
> you!
>
> *DEADLINE: 21 February 2015*
>
> Simon PJ
>
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>
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