[web-devel] [Haskell-beginners] happstack versus yesod

[Michael Snoyman]

I won't argue with that sentiment: I think Yesod includes more features than
Happstack or Snap, and therefore it will take more time to learn. For that
matter, PHP has a lower learning curve than anything in Haskell. But I'm
almost certain that on any decently sized project, all three of the
above-mentioned Haskell frameworks give better productivity than PHP.

Michael

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 10:25 PM, <vagif.verdi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, for double email. I hate my KMail.
>
> I think by "freedom" people often mean "how fast can i be comfortable in
> the
> framework to start running around and do things." It is true that its much
> faster to start writing useful code in Snap than in Yesod. And that gives
> people the perception of freedom. Yesod requires substantial time
> investment.
> And even after that some of its parts are still behind the wall
> (persistence,
> widgets, subsites). Complex parts that are not documented.
>
> I spent quite some time to pick up Yesod, and i am glad that i did. But
> looking back i realize that because i am not using many of the features of
> Yesod (persistence, widgets, subsites) i would probably get faster to the
> same
> place where i am with Snap and bolted in hamlet.
>
> On Tuesday, April 05, 2011 11:32:38 AM you wrote:
> > This probably isn't the right forum for expressing this thought, but here
> > goes anyway:
> >
> > What exactly is the freedom that Yesod takes away from you? I know this
> > idea gets passed around a lot: Yesod isn't "really" Haskell, Yesod is its
> > own language, etc. But all of that is really just talking about some
> sugar
> > that Yesod puts in place for you: under the surface, it's just functions,
> > data types and type classes. You can go ahead and write a complete Yesod
> > application without using Template Haskell of QuasiQuotation.
> >
> > So what's the restriction that Yesod has that Happstack/Snap don't? Yesod
> > requires you to provide some datatypes. That's it. What's the purpose of
> > the datatypes? Mostly, it's about type-safe URLs. I'm not exactly sure
> why
> > the term "restriction" or "freedom" even applies here: Yesod has a
> > *feature* that Happstack/Snap do not include out of the box.
> >
> > Let me phrase this in a different way: "But I don't like Haskell, because
> > the idea of Python in more interesting for me. Python gives you some
> > freedom." I really do see this as the same argument. You can go ahead and
> > right some code without static type checking in Python, and you might
> even
> > write it faster than you would have in Haskell. But go ahead and start
> > making changes, and unless you have some very good unit tests, you're in
> > for a world of hurt. In Haskell, often times the compiler will save you
> > from yourself.
> >
> > The same is true in Yesod. I've refactored incredibly large codebases,
> with
> > hundreds of different resource patterns, and *never* had to worry about
> > 404s. Maybe some people consider that giving up freedom. I consider it
> > giving up the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot.
> >
> > Oh, and if you are absolutely dependent on the idea of getting rid of
> this
> > data-type requirements, and want all the freedom of dynamic routes, you
> can
> > try out a 44 line module[1] that I mentioned recently[2].
> >
> > OK, enough of this rant. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just tired of
> > this notion that Yesod is a ball-and-chain around your ankles. People can
> > have legitimate reasons to prefer Happstack or Snap to Yesod, I've never
> > claimed that it was a perfect framework for everyone. I just don't think
> > this is one of those legitimate reasons.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > [1] https://gist.github.com/884802
> > <https://gist.github.com/884802>[2]
> > http://osdir.com/ml/general/2011-04/msg02160.html
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Alexey G <kreed131 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello. It's very interesting theme for me and I want to express my
> > > opinion.
> > > Yesod - very fast web-framework(
> > >
> http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/preliminary-warp-cross-language-benchmarks).
> > > But I don't like Yesod, because idea of Happstack more interesting for
> > > me. Happstack gives to you some freedom.
> > >
> > > I trying to use Snap Framework now. And it's very good for me. Try it
> > > http://snapframework.com/!
> > >
> > > Sorry for my english.
> > >
> > > 2011/4/5 Ramy Abdel-Azim <ramy.abdelazim at gmail.com>
> > >
> > >> I already posted about this a little bit but i think i should let the
> > >> old thread get back to it's regularly scheduled conversaion. on to my
> > >> question:
> > >>
> > >> So I know there are a million easier ways to createa  blog (wordpress,
> > >> django, drupal, etc. etc.) but which would you recommend I use to
> build
> > >> a beginner website that is simliar to a blog: happstack or yesod?
> _Ramy
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Beginners mailing list
> > >> Beginners at haskell.org
> > >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > >
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>
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