[web-devel] [Haskell-beginners] happstack versus yesod

vagif.verdi at gmail.com vagif.verdi at gmail.com
Tue Apr 5 21:25:24 CEST 2011

Sorry, for double email. I hate my KMail.

I think by "freedom" people often mean "how fast can i be comfortable in the 
framework to start running around and do things." It is true that its much 
faster to start writing useful code in Snap than in Yesod. And that gives 
people the perception of freedom. Yesod requires substantial time investment. 
And even after that some of its parts are still behind the wall (persistence, 
widgets, subsites). Complex parts that are not documented.

I spent quite some time to pick up Yesod, and i am glad that i did. But 
looking back i realize that because i am not using many of the features of 
Yesod (persistence, widgets, subsites) i would probably get faster to the same 
place where i am with Snap and bolted in hamlet.

On Tuesday, April 05, 2011 11:32:38 AM you wrote:
> This probably isn't the right forum for expressing this thought, but here
> goes anyway:
> What exactly is the freedom that Yesod takes away from you? I know this
> idea gets passed around a lot: Yesod isn't "really" Haskell, Yesod is its
> own language, etc. But all of that is really just talking about some sugar
> that Yesod puts in place for you: under the surface, it's just functions,
> data types and type classes. You can go ahead and write a complete Yesod
> application without using Template Haskell of QuasiQuotation.
> So what's the restriction that Yesod has that Happstack/Snap don't? Yesod
> requires you to provide some datatypes. That's it. What's the purpose of
> the datatypes? Mostly, it's about type-safe URLs. I'm not exactly sure why
> the term "restriction" or "freedom" even applies here: Yesod has a
> *feature* that Happstack/Snap do not include out of the box.
> Let me phrase this in a different way: "But I don't like Haskell, because
> the idea of Python in more interesting for me. Python gives you some
> freedom." I really do see this as the same argument. You can go ahead and
> right some code without static type checking in Python, and you might even
> write it faster than you would have in Haskell. But go ahead and start
> making changes, and unless you have some very good unit tests, you're in
> for a world of hurt. In Haskell, often times the compiler will save you
> from yourself.
> The same is true in Yesod. I've refactored incredibly large codebases, with
> hundreds of different resource patterns, and *never* had to worry about
> 404s. Maybe some people consider that giving up freedom. I consider it
> giving up the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot.
> Oh, and if you are absolutely dependent on the idea of getting rid of this
> data-type requirements, and want all the freedom of dynamic routes, you can
> try out a 44 line module[1] that I mentioned recently[2].
> OK, enough of this rant. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just tired of
> this notion that Yesod is a ball-and-chain around your ankles. People can
> have legitimate reasons to prefer Happstack or Snap to Yesod, I've never
> claimed that it was a perfect framework for everyone. I just don't think
> this is one of those legitimate reasons.
> Michael
> [1] https://gist.github.com/884802
> <https://gist.github.com/884802>[2]
> http://osdir.com/ml/general/2011-04/msg02160.html
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Alexey G <kreed131 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello. It's very interesting theme for me and I want to express my
> > opinion.
> > Yesod - very fast web-framework(
> > http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/preliminary-warp-cross-language-benchmarks).
> > But I don't like Yesod, because idea of Happstack more interesting for
> > me. Happstack gives to you some freedom.
> > 
> > I trying to use Snap Framework now. And it's very good for me. Try it
> > http://snapframework.com/!
> > 
> > Sorry for my english.
> > 
> > 2011/4/5 Ramy Abdel-Azim <ramy.abdelazim at gmail.com>
> > 
> >> I already posted about this a little bit but i think i should let the
> >> old thread get back to it's regularly scheduled conversaion. on to my
> >> question:
> >> 
> >> So I know there are a million easier ways to createa  blog (wordpress,
> >> django, drupal, etc. etc.) but which would you recommend I use to build
> >> a beginner website that is simliar to a blog: happstack or yesod? _Ramy
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Beginners mailing list
> >> Beginners at haskell.org
> >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Beginners at haskell.org
> > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

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