New CLC proposal process

Simon Peyton Jones simonpj at microsoft.com
Wed Nov 3 09:17:38 UTC 2021 

|  These core libraries are the first thing everyone getting into haskell
|  is going to interact with. Having a fragmented set of maintainers
|  without a body that connects them sounds like a terrible idea.

I'm not much involved in these changes, but reading [1] it says

	As a collective entity CLC owns, but does not 
     maintain so-called Core Libraries

So it sounds as if the CLC will continue to play the role of "the body that connects them", while still giving autonomy for the individual core libraries themselves to their respective maintainers.  That sounds OK to me, doesn't it?

The doc also says that if a core-library maintainer becomes unresponsive, the CLC will seek another.

What's not so clear to me is what makes a library into a "Core library". Can non-core libraries become core?  And vice versa?  What's the criterion?  I suppose it could simply be historical, but that seems less than ideal.

I welcome the CLC reboot, especially having a process so that we know what issues are in play, and what decisions have been taken.

Simon

[1] https://github.com/haskell/core-libraries-committee

PS: I am leaving Microsoft at the end of November 2021, at which point simonpj at microsoft.com will cease to work.  Use simon.peytonjones at gmail.com instead.  (For now, it just forwards to simonpj at microsoft.com.)

|  -----Original Message-----
|  From: Libraries <libraries-bounces at haskell.org> On Behalf Of Julian
|  Ospald
|  Sent: 02 November 2021 18:40
|  To: Andrew Lelechenko <andrew.lelechenko at gmail.com>
|  Cc: libraries at haskell.org
|  Subject: Re: New CLC proposal process
|  
|  Well,
|  
|  this confirms my disappointment.
|  
|  Wasn't the intention of a reboot to fix the disengagement of the
|  current CLC?
|  
|  From reading this thread, my impression is rather that this
|  disengagement has been formalized in the form of a proposal process
|  and a statement that the "Core libraries comittee" is no longer
|  responsible for the "Core libraries", which I find rather odd.
|  
|  It is my personal impression that the community wants an engaged CLC
|  that is able to moderate discussions, help with projects related to
|  the core libraries and possibly make decisions that are entirely
|  technical and bear no political nuances.
|  
|  These core libraries are the first thing everyone getting into haskell
|  is going to interact with. Having a fragmented set of maintainers
|  without a body that connects them sounds like a terrible idea.
|  
|  Cheers,
|  Julian
|  
|  
|  On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 12:01:55PM +0000, Andrew Lelechenko wrote:
|  > 1. On contrary, we narrowed CLC from 9 to 6 members to make it more
|  manageable.
|  >
|  > 2. CLC was incapable to deal with wider ecosystem issues for years.
|  It is better not to nourish false hopes.
|  >
|  > I believe in "Make each committee do one thing well". CLC's primary
|  and undivided responsibility is `base` and, as witnessed by a huge
|  backlog, even this single thing was handled below expectations. It's
|  not like we are in a good position to accept additional, wider
|  responsibilities.
|  >
|  > Remember that "core libraries" is an abstract moniker without much
|  consistency: e. g., before very recent `text` was not core, and it
|  includes `mtl`, but not `transformers`, and does not include
|  `containers`. So AFAIU CLC was never a correct body for ecosystem-wide
|  changes.
|  >
|  > (FWIW I'm hugely interested in AFPP and happy to help in my personal
|  > capacity)
|  >
|  > Best regards,
|  > Andrew
|  >
|  > > On 31 Oct 2021, at 09:49, Julian Ospald <hasufell at posteo.de>
|  wrote:
|  > >
|  > > That sounds rather disappointing to me.
|  > >
|  > > So what has been done to reboot the CLC is:
|  > >
|  > > 1. add more people and
|  > > 2. narrow the scope and offload ecosystem issues to the Haskell
|  > >   Foundation?
|  > >
|  > > I've been trying to get input from the CLC for the past year on an
|  > > issue that affects potentially all of core libraries and I don't
|  > > think it's feasible to contact all of the maintainers isolated.
|  > >
|  > > Does that mean CLC won't assist me in contacting core library
|  > > maintainers and moderating a discussion?
|  > >
|  > >
|  > > On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 12:23:57AM +0100, Andrew Lelechenko wrote:
|  > >> As
|  > >>
|  https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fg
|  > >> ithub.com%2Fhaskell%2Fcore-libraries-
|  committee%2Fblob%2Fmain%2FREAD
|  > >>
|  ME.md&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cf8f41ef7b86e4c0e
|  > >>
|  95da08d99e30436c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63771
|  > >>
|  4752441971356%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV
|  > >>
|  2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=bSfoLPWt2rMe
|  > >> P1mMkImk2U5jOM39BI%2FBDNtHisaKeIY%3D&reserved=0
|  > >> says, CLC owns, but does not maintain core libraries as long as
|  > >> they are kept in order by appointed maintainers. If you find a
|  core
|  > >> library abandoned and neglected, raise an issue with CLC.
|  > >>
|  > >> Otherwise proposals affecting core libraries should be discussed
|  > >> with respective maintainers first. They can seek CLC opinion on
|  > >> controversial changes, but are not obliged to.
|  > >>
|  > >> I suppose HF Tech Track could be a helpful body to ask a
|  > >> non-binding opinion on changes with a wider scope.
|  > >>
|  > >> Best regards,
|  > >> Andrew
|  > >>
|  > >>
|  > >>    On 31 Oct 2021, at 00:08, Julian Ospald <hasufell at posteo.de>
|  wrote:
|  > >>
|  > >>    Do I understand correctly that the CLC only governs base now?
|  > >>
|  > >>    If not, where does one raise other issues that potentially
|  affect core
|  > >>    libraries?
|  > >>
|  > >>    On October 30, 2021 8:13:18 PM UTC, Andrew Lelechenko <
|  > >>    andrew.lelechenko at gmail.com> wrote:
|  > >>
|  > >>
|  > >>        I'm happy to announce that Core Libraries Committee has
|  completed
|  > >>        post-election reboot and now has a new home at
|  https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgith
|  ub.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cf8f41ef7b86e4c0
|  e95da08d99e30436c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6377147
|  52441971356%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMz
|  IiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=PV%2BwQ3dDsgZsFB%2FJ
|  gTvCJ6%2BnaMCLY0pxWmG2GrOuTrI%3D&reserved=0
|  > >>        haskell/core-libraries-committee and a new GitHub-based
|  process: https:
|  > >>        //github.com/haskell/core-libraries-
|  committee/blob/main/PROPOSALS.md.
|  > >>
|  > >>        From now on proposals to change base should be raised as
|  GitHub issues
|  > >>        instead of emails to libraries at .
|  > >>
|  > >>        Best regards,
|  > >>        Andrew
|  > >>
|  > >>
|  >
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