[Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

[Benjamin L.Russell]

On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier
<mvanier at cs.caltech.edu> wrote:

>FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world.  PLT Scheme has a 
>Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of 
>trying to teach Scheme to new programmers.  If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like 
>to be on it.

Thank you for your response.

It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in particular,
because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by the
education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing list, where I
also participate.  I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC) and DrScheme
frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often write equivalent
programs in both Haskell and Scheme.  The two main functional
programming languages that I studied in college were Scheme and
Haskell as well.

Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying programming as part
of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether Haskell could
not also fulfill this role.  I saw no reason that it couldn't.

However, over the last six months or so, I noticed that the same kind
of beginner-level questions on both languages tended to generate quite
different responses on plt-scheme and haskell-cafe.  Most of the
people there are educators, as opposed to researchers, and they tend
to be less impatient and more responsive to beginner-level questions
on the language, but there is less discussion there of research-level
topics.  It seemed that beginner-level discussion and research-level
discussion were each better served by different audiences, and that
beginner-level questions tended to bore and irritate researchers,
while research-level discussion tended to intimidate and weed out
beginners, particularly those either lacking mathematical
sophistication or who did not write in a formal, academic style.  This
distinction seemed to become especially significant in mathematical
topics.

Thus, I perceived a need for a less research-oriented, more liberal
arts-oriented discussion forum for educators and beginner-level
students of Haskell.  This is what led to my proposal.

As an aside, these two languages seem to have an indirect influence on
each other.  For example, recently, a variety of Scheme called "Typed
Scheme" has appeared (as a part of PLT Scheme), whose syntax loosely
resembles Haskell.  Originally, it did not have type signatures, but
these were added later, most likely as a result of influence from
either Haskell or a very similar typed functional programming
language.

On the other hand, in the paper "A History of Haskell: Being Lazy With
Class"
(http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/history.pdf),
the authors quote (on page 3) an anonymous reviewer as writing the
following:

> "An interesting sidelight is that the Friedman and Wise paper ["Cons should 
> not evaluate its arguments" (Friedman and Wise, 1976)] inspired Sussman 
> and Steele to examine lazy evaluation in Scheme, and for a time they 
> weighed whether to make the revised version of Scheme call-by-name or 
> call-by-value. They eventually chose to retain the original call-by-value 
> design, reasoning that it seemed much easier to simulate call-by-name in a 
> call-by-value language (using lambda-expressions as thunks) than to 
> simulate call-by-value in a call-by-name language (which requires a separate 
> evaluation-forcing mechanism). Whatever we might think of that 
> reasoning, we can only speculate on how different the academic 
> programming-language landscape might be today had they made the 
> opposite decision."

The influence of Scheme and the participation of Gerry Sussman in
early academic conferences in the evolution of functional programming
is also mentioned in several other places in that paper on Haskell.

In addition, the HaskellWiki page on "Continuation"
(http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Continuation) specifically cites
Haskellized Scheme examples from Wikipedia.

All this has led me to believe that Haskell should be fully capable of
fulfilling a non-strict, purely functional alternative of Scheme,
based on the simply typed, rather than the untyped, lambda calculus,
in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts curriculum, too.

But first, we probably need an appropriate mailing list for this kind
of discussion.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

>Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses.
>> 
>> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react.  Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea.
>> 
>> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.  Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.
>> 
>> Please post your responses initially in this thread.  After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe.
>> 
>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>> 
>> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
>>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell at haskell.org>
>>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM
>>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on
>>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and
>>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called
>>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing
>>> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the
>>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but
>>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts
>>> education, on a par with Scheme.  When I suggested the idea
>>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org
>>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this
>>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here
>>> to ask for feedback.
>>>
>>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would
>>> be as follows:
>>>
>>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the
>>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in
>>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to
>>> in research.
>>>
>>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students
>>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for
>>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal
>>> arts education, as opposed to an
>>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
>>>
>>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists:
>>>
>>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for
>>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions
>>>
>>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for
>>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious
>>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of
>>> the language Haskell.
>>>
>>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for
>>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts
>>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly
>>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have
>>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not
>>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have
>>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not
>>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting
>>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and
>>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the
>>> mailing list.
>>>
>>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a
>>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the
>>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing
>>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow
>>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points
>>> randomly from a square in approximating pi.  Avoiding this
>>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution
>>> could be considered independently from the precision of the
>>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to
>>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar
>>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and
>>> received the above-mentioned response.)
>>>
>>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue
>>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum,
>>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from
>>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics
>>> background.  The primary audience of this new mailing list
>>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts
>>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for
>>> studying functional programming.  Currently, the language
>>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is
>>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has
>>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming
>>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell
>>> may either not have a computer science background, or may
>>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background.  Posts
>>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers,
>>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find
>>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be
>>> welcome
>>>  in a more education-focused context.
>>>
>>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list,
>>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching
>>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding
>>> questions from students in that context, would help
>>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread
>>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in
>>> industry.  Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could
>>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and
>>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background
>>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators
>>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected
>>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science
>>> background.
>>>
>>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow
>>> <marlowsd at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
>>> list
>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>>>> Cc: "John Peterson"
>>> <jpeterson at western.edu>
>>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>
>>>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list
>>> has
>>>> a narrow 
>>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche.  In this
>>> case
>>>> you're 
>>>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it
>>>> needs discussion 
>>>> amongst the community before we create the list, so
>>> that we
>>>> can keep a 
>>>> consistent strategy.
>>>>
>>>> That's not to say that I disagree with your
>>> proposal. 
>>>> But it doesn't 
>>>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and
>>> why
>>>> haskell-cafe 
>>>> shouldn't serve the purpose.  One thing that
>>> isn't
>>>> clear is whether the 
>>>> list you're proposing is for people interested in
>>>> *teaching* Haskell (in 
>>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or
>>> people
>>>> *learning* Haskell (in 
>>>> which case I'd consider carefully whether
>>> haskell-cafe
>>>> shoudn't be 
>>>> serving that need).  That's something you need to
>>>> clarify when proposing 
>>>> this list to the community.
>>>>
>>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to
>>>> haskell at haskell.org in the 
>>>> first instance, and see what response you get. 
>>> Discussion
>>>> should move 
>>>> to haskell-cafe quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> 	Simon
>>>>
>>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>
>>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
>>>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new
>>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to
>>>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the
>>>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>>> interested in
>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan
>>> to call
>>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research
>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to
>>>> non-computer science major students.
>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>>> mailing
>>>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and
>>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is
>>> devoted to
>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research
>>> matters.
>>>>  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
>>> academic
>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an
>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science
>>> majors
>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request
>>> you to
>>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you
>>> please
>>>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
>>>>> Name of Mailing List:  Haskell-Edu
>>>>> E-mail Address:        haskell-edu at haskell.org
>>>>> Description:           The Haskell-Edu Mailing
>>> List: 
>>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in
>>>> Education
>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do
>>> to
>>>> start this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>>> haskell.org,
>>>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
>>> mailing
>>>> list service?  Also, how should I have it listed in
>>> the
>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and
>>> cooperation.
>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
>>>> <jpeterson at western.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> From: John Peterson
>>> <jpeterson at western.edu>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new
>>> Haskell-related
>>>> mailing list
>>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>>>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
>>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing
>>>> list.  Simon
>>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if
>>> you
>>>> drop him
>>>>>> and email he'll do the setup for
>>> Haskell.org. 
>>>> Once the
>>>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and
>>> add it
>>>> to the
>>>>>> appropriate pages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We've had a bunch of these special
>>> interest
>>>> lists and
>>>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but
>>> you
>>>> never know
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    John
>>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
>>>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell
>>>> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related
>>> mailing
>>>> list
>>>>>> To: "John Peterson"
>>>> <jpeterson at western.edu>
>>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM
>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>>>> interested in
>>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which
>>> I
>>>> plan to
>>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
>>>> non-research
>>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by
>>> the
>>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more
>>> accessible
>>>> to
>>>>>> non-computer science major students.  (This
>>>> message is
>>>>>> being addressed to you because I had already
>>> sent
>>>> the
>>>>>> portion below twice to other administrators
>>> at
>>>> Haskell.org,
>>>>>> first to mailman-owner at haskell.org, and then
>>> to
>>>>>> simonmarhaskell at gmail.com, but had not
>>> received a
>>>> response
>>>>>> on either occasion.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>>>> mailing
>>>>>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell
>>> and
>>>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former
>>> is
>>>> devoted to
>>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to
>>> research
>>>> matters.
>>>>>>  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is
>>> overly
>>>> academic
>>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this
>>>> creates an
>>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer
>>>> science majors
>>>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to
>>> do to
>>>> start
>>>>>> this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>>>> haskell.org, or
>>>>>> just start it by myself using a
>>> non-Haskell.org
>>>> mailing
>>>>>> list service?  Also, how should I have it
>>> listed
>>>> in the
>>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo)
>>> page for
>>>> the
>>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell
>>> community?
>>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and
>>> cooperation.
>>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Haskell mailing list
>>> Haskell at haskell.org
>>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
>> _______________________________________________
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