[Haskell] Re: Newbie: what are the advantages of Haskell?

[Simon Peyton-Jones]

This is an interesting thread but can I urge posters to reply to

        Haskell-cafe at haskell.org

The Haskell-cafe mailing list is designed for precisely the kind of discussion in the current thread.  But Haskell at haskell.org is a low-bandwidth mailing list for announcements and the like.

Thanks

Simon

| -----Original Message-----
| From: haskell-bounces at haskell.org [mailto:haskell-bounces at haskell.org] On Behalf Of Taillefer, Troy
| (EXP)
| Sent: 27 April 2007 22:32
| To: haskell at haskell.org
| Subject: [Haskell] Re: Newbie: what are the advantages of Haskell?
|
|
| Mike,
|
| It has affected my Java/C/C++ programming a lot.
|
| 1. I am much more careful how I combine ( inherit, compose, aggregate )
| code because of potential side affects
|
| 2. It has helped to find certain types of bugs in Java code more easily
| that come up because of subtle effects introduced by combining code
| together
|
| 3. It has helped me to write code that is more composable
|
| 4. Haskell has increased my awareness of how important type safety is So
| I use Java Generics more now to enforce more type safety  when I can
| (sometimes I am stuck deploying to java 1.4) (I also use C++ templates
| to do the same thing for C++) But these are often feel like hacks
|
| Haskell's type system is a thing of pure beauty haven't seen anything
| quite like it in any other PL (ML and OCAML are as close as I have seen
| but still fall short) and Generics and Templates really can't compare
|
| You really want the compiler to help you out as much it can. Have it
| tell you when you are doing something that you shouldn't be doing.
|
| By the way Mike thanks you just totally cheered me up I guess I just
| needed to sit back and think about what I have learned and how valuable
| it is to me.
|
| Troy
|
|
|
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: haskell-bounces at haskell.org [mailto:haskell-bounces at haskell.org]
| On Behalf Of mike clemow
| Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 4:16 PM
| To: haskell at haskell.org
| Subject: Re: [Haskell] Re: Newbie: what are the advantages of Haskell?
|
| Troy,
|
| As a Java chimp embarking on the Haskell journey myself, I'd be
| interested in hearing about specific ways that learning Haskell has
| changed the way you program Java.  How do you employ the "very
| interesting concepts" that you have learned through your study of
| Haskell in your Java programming?  Do you employ them at all?  _Can_
| they be employed in Java?  Has it made you a better Java programmer?
|
| Cheers,
| Mike
|
| On 4/27/07, Taillefer, Troy (EXP) <troy.taillefer at lmco.com> wrote:
| > >Admittedly, this is phrased in an inflammatory manner, however, the
| > original sentiment >>is actually pointing out an advantage of Java
| > over Haskell. Here is the original >>>.paragraph in context:
| >
| > This not the first inflammatory comment he has made
| >
| > >>But, Sebastian is right.
| > Sebastian will be right when I see Chimpanzees coding in Java :)
| >
| > >> The leap is worth it.
| > I am not so sure it was for me.
| > I guess It depends on what you are looking for I have spent the last
| > year learning Haskell and I have learned some very interesting
| concepts.
| > I can't help but wish that Haskell turned out to be a more practical
| > language for me to code something useful in every time I looked for
| > Haskell libraries I was a disappointed.
| > I can't help feeling that last year might have been better spent
| > learning Erlang (which is this years language for me to learn).
| >
| > I really enjoy Functional programming (at least until I try to do
| > something serious then frustration sets in). I can't produce software
| > in a timely and cost effective fashion without a large body of high
| > quality, documented and maintained libraries.
| >
| > I get the feeling that Haskell is for researchers to explore ideas
| > about programming in but no one is interested in doing The grind work
| > of cranking out useful basic libraries.
| > I guess you need borrow some of those Java Chimps :).
| >
| > Am I the only person on the list that feels this way ?
| >
| > I guess I am feeling a bit bitter of spending so much time on Haskell
| > and having so little to show for it.
| >
| > Troy
| >
| >
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: haskell-bounces at haskell.org [mailto:haskell-bounces at haskell.org]
| > On Behalf Of Al Falloon
| > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 12:19 PM
| > To: haskell at haskell.org
| > Cc: haskell at haskell.org
| > Subject: [Haskell] Re: Newbie: what are the advantages of Haskell?
| >
| > Taillefer, Troy (EXP) wrote:
| > > Java sense (i.e. "cut out any feature that can't be understood in
| > > five
| >
| > > minutes by a chimp")
| > >
| > > Got to love comments like this they are constructive, objective,
| > > mature and accurate.
| > >
| > > Glad we have your expert opinion to give us the gospel.
| > >
| > > Can I get an amen? How about a Hallelujah ?
| >
| > Admittedly, this is phrased in an inflammatory manner, however, the
| > original sentiment is actually pointing out an advantage of Java over
| > Haskell. Here is the original paragraph in context:
| >
| > Sebastian Sylvan wrote:
| > > I can sometimes feel that Haskell looses out on not being user
| > > friendly in the Java sense (i.e. "cut out any feature that can't be
| > > understood in five minutes by a chimp"). Some things do take some
| > > effort to learn, but there is a huge payoff for it (it's really
| > > powerful!). But yeah, there might be plenty of folks who will never
| > > bother learning about them, and they won't understand your code.
| >
| > IOW: Java's advanced features are separable from its basic features.
| > I.e. you can teach Java without teaching generics or anonymous inner
| > classes. In Haskell, OTOH, you can't even learn how to do IO without
| > learning Monads, or at least glossing over oddities like a new syntax.
| > And thats not even getting into issues like statelessness and lazy
| > evaluation.
| >
| > So for a new user, Java is the better language. You can get into its
| > features slowly and as you see the need for them. Haskell requires you
|
| > to learn a number of mind-bending concepts right up front. Java has a
| > gentle learning curve and Haskell has a vertical jump.
| >
| > But, Sebastian is right. The leap is worth it. Its the same as what
| > someone once said about LISP: even if you never get to use Haskell
| > regularly, you will be a better programmer when you finally "get it".
| >
| > _______________________________________________
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| > Haskell at haskell.org
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| >
|
|
| --
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