[Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey
Simon Peyton Jones
simonpj at microsoft.com
Mon Oct 15 07:55:49 UTC 2018
The GHC team (coincidentally) is cooking up a very short survey
that is intended to help guide our strategic priorities.
There is only one substantial question:
Imagine that you had one developer working on GHC for
six months full-time, that you were paying for yourself.
What would you ask that person to do? Keep in mind that
the project should be within GHC itself and tractable
in a six-month time-frame.
It has a rather different purpose to Taylor's proposed survey
and FP Complete's, because it is not comprehensive, but instead
focuses on a single question about a single artefact.
Returning to Taylor's question list, yes, it would be interesting to know whether the increased release tempo is perceived as helpful or unhelpful. (It's helpful for the development /process/ because it makes reduces the pressure to squeeze "just one more thing" into a release: the next bus will be along in only 6 months.)
Incidentally, I for one think that it's a Good Thing that you included FP Complete's survey in the HWN, Taylor. First, I think it's a substantial and interesting piece of work -- and /any/ survey is vulnerable to response bias. Second, I don’t think anyone should expect you as HWN editor to play a role as community censor. Third, deliberately excluding it would in itself be a divisive act in a community that needs less division and more love.
You do a fantastic job with HWN. Please keep doing it!
Thanks
Simon
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Haskell-community <haskell-community-bounces at haskell.org> On
| Behalf Of Gershom B
| Sent: 15 October 2018 01:56
| To: taylor at fausak.me; Mathieu Boespflug <mboes at tweag.net>; Ben Gamari
| <bgamari at gmail.com>
| Cc: haskell-community at haskell.org
| Subject: Re: [Haskell-community] 2018 state of Haskell survey
|
| (cc mathieu boespflug, ben gamari)
|
| One more thought:
|
| mathieu, ben -- do you think you would be interested in any questions
| on the frequency of ghc releases -- if people appreciate more
| frequent, smaller releases, or not, etc?
|
| I wonder if there are any other questions as well about core libraries
| vs. performance vs. "big features" (like type system things) vs. small
| ergonomic features etc. that the core ghc team might be interested in
| sounding out people on, bearing in mind the necessary limitations of
| survey derived data.
|
| --g
| On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 8:36 PM Gershom B <gershomb at gmail.com> wrote:
| >
| > Hi Taylor.
| >
| > We're discussing this in the committee. I agree that to the extent
| > they can accurately reflect something, language surveys are useful,
| > and appreciate that you want to run a useful survey, and certainly
| > want to encourage and help you in making it as broad and useful as
| > possible. That said, I don't know if slapping a "haskell.org" label on
| > the survey will help manage the biggest drivers of selection bias --
| > which is not only about who chooses to respond, but about who is
| > reached through what mechanisms. (I don't know the relative importance
| > of response-bias vs. outreach-bias in general, and would be curious if
| > somebody has some good research on that to point to). I honestly don't
| > know if we have enough channels _in general_ to do a good survey, no
| > matter who runs it or how at all! Regardless of the decision we come
| > to, here are a few of my personal thoughts on the questions you have
| > thus far, and what could be added:
| >
| > 1) A question "how did you hear about this survey" -- this could at
| > least help to disentangle outreach-bias, or notice it, depending on if
| > it induces any correlations.
| >
| > 2) A question on how long after a new GHC release users upgrade --
| > both personally, and at work.
| >
| > 3) Distinguishing between personal and work build-systems in the
| > relevant question.
| >
| > 4) I think the sorts of questions that make sense to ask in this early
| > part can resemble those in the first part of the Go survey:
| >
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.go
| lang.org%2Fsurvey2017-
| results&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2
| 008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6367516175958
| 02229&sdata=2wB5Ph5%2Be6wZm0CWP7Yzx%2Fxe4dOlKHqNPKZReiJmE50%3D&r
| eserved=0 (I especially like the
| > questions about the area of development and server vs cli apps vs
| > libraries). I also like their questions about what environments teams
| > deploy programs to. It would also be worth asking if the apps
| > developed are customer-facing or internal.
| >
| > 5) I think an interesting question would be what preferred js
| > solution, if any, teams adopt -- i.e. ghcjs, typescript, purescript,
| > raw js, etc.
| >
| > 6) for the "why did you stop" question, there are a good range of
| > potential multi-choice answers that can be drawn from with the rust
| > user survey:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.ru
| st-lang.org%2F2017%2F09%2F05%2FRust-2017-Survey-
| Results.html&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e42
| 0bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63675161
| 7595802229&sdata=MpnYeOui%2FfTPfpYRLlzzpStJHqYWJ4ENZd77qdrQ1BY%3D&am
| p;reserved=0
| >
| > Cheers,
| > Gershom
| >
| > On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 3:32 PM Taylor Fausak <taylor at fausak.me>
| wrote:
| > >
| > > I'm not entirely sure what official support would look like. A few
| things come to mind:
| > >
| > > 1. Simply putting "official" somewhere in the title, such as:
| Official 2018 state of Haskell survey.
| > >
| > > 2. Putting something about Haskell.org in the description of the
| survey, such as: Sponsored by Haskell.org.
| > >
| > > 3. Announcing the survey through channels that I may not be aware
| of. Or helping me announce the survey through various channels (mailing
| lists, Reddit, and so on) by mentioning Haskell.org.
| > >
| > > I'm sure there are more ways that I'm not thinking of.
| > >
| > > Perhaps it would be better to state my goal and see what, if
| anything, can be to achieve that goal? My goal is for this survey to be
| *the* authoritative Haskell survey and for the community to broadly
| accept it results. In particular I would like to avoid reactions like
| these to the recent FP Complete survey:
| > >
| > > > I browse r/haskell all the time and follow FPco on Twitter, and I
| wasn't aware of this survey. [1]
| > >
| > > > It should not be surprising to think that fp complete has much
| better outreach to Stackage users than to non Stackage users. [2]
| > >
| > > > Any survey hosted by FPComplete is biased towards users of stack,
| for reasons that should be self evident. [3]
| > >
| > > Similar sentiments have been expressed about last year's Haskell
| Weekly survey:
| > >
| > > > Haskell Weekly's reputation is tainted as it appears to be seen as
| partisan (and I tend to agree). [4]
| > >
| > > > one of those surveys is from FP Complete and one of them is from
| someone who I would consider very partisan in these kind of discussions.
| [5]
| > >
| > > > For the love of god stop posting those surveys. They're not
| convincing and obviously flawed. [6]
| > >
| > > I don't expect to be able to make everyone happy, but I think that
| presenting this year's survey as sponsored by both Haskell Weekly and
| Haskell.org would go a long way toward making it acceptable to a broad
| range of the Haskell community.
| > >
| > > I hope that helps!
| > >
| > > [1]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd
| it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F9mm05d%2F2018_haskell_survey_results%2
| Fe7gplya%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420
| bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617
| 595802229&sdata=X518Wt%2BsB5yepxQO7iKxYzbcOBqNTwH4QvesKNVccBg%3D&
| ;reserved=0
| > > [2]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd
| it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F8tc8pr%2Ffp_complete_launches_new_bloc
| kchain_auditing%2Fe188ftv%2F%3Fcontext%3D3&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40
| microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2
| d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595802229&sdata=4oPTVet8hrgE2lTzjt%2B
| 02f13o%2Fq%2BOrnGoITlsBsdKgw%3D&reserved=0
| > > [3]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd
| it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F9mm05d%2F2018_haskell_survey_results%2
| Fe7gpfwe%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420
| bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617
| 595802229&sdata=9L8ztYN3kOArpdAhOiydFI6gfuz8Evu5%2FmtHZ5j3vyY%3D&
| ;reserved=0
| > > [4]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd
| it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F9mm05d%2F2018_haskell_survey_results%2
| Fe7ka8xn%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420
| bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617
| 595802229&sdata=tpyLQ%2BA3Lj4GLfxjMUgglfRyl46jH6go1ZE3OhVLwLo%3D&
| ;reserved=0
| > > [5]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd
| it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F8tc8pr%2Ffp_complete_launches_new_bloc
| kchain_auditing%2Fe187pzq%2F%3Fcontext%3D1&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40
| microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2
| d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595812242&sdata=ZbjRYFCXl4rraHE%2Bno7
| kefm5N3%2FvtNpaI%2FXTz3N6i7w%3D&reserved=0
| > > [6]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnp.redd
| it.com%2Fr%2Fhaskell%2Fcomments%2F8uw9hw%2Fpsa_cabal_breaks_with_yaml083
| 1_on_ghc_710_and%2Fe1lfzgr%2F%3Fcontext%3D1&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%4
| 0microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab
| 2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595812242&sdata=oyy8raidob%2Bjf8Evw0
| Kb6aCul0knqYlOlxN8zLjzl3I%3D&reserved=0
| > >
| > >
| > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Neil Mitchell wrote:
| > >
| > > Hi Taylor,
| > >
| > > What does official support look like? I don't think there's anything
| above and beyond what you're already doing.
| > >
| > > Thanks, Neil
| > >
| > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2018 at 3:49 pm, Taylor Fausak <taylor at fausak.me>
| wrote:
| > >
| > > (I have CCed <committee at haskell.org> because the haskell-community
| mailing list seems relatively quiet and I want to make sure this is
| seen.)
| > >
| > > Hello! My name is Taylor Fausak. I run the Haskell Weekly
| newsletter. Last year I published a survey [1] for the Haskell
| community. I collected and reported [2] on about 1,335 responses. I plan
| on publishing another survey this year on the same date, November 1st. I
| am developing it in the open again [3] and would love to hear from any
| interested parties. Please let me know if you have any ideas about the
| survey!
| > >
| > > This year I am interested in making the survey official by seeking
| support from Haskell.org. Is such a thing possible and desirable?
| > >
| > > Thanks for your consideration! I hope to hear from you soon.
| > >
| > > [1]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhaskell
| weekly.news%2Fsurveys%2F2017.html&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft
| .com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db
| 47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595812242&sdata=0eGdCpPFIyxgNp5YNXvP6TZQMAvTJ%
| 2BIck4UvSV7wWSU%3D&reserved=0
| > > [2]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftaylor.
| fausak.me%2F2017%2F11%2F15%2F2017-state-of-haskell-survey-
| results%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420b
| bf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6367516175
| 95812242&sdata=QZjow3PKFG7BitCQCdTe7xW%2BXl4YA4ICVmA%2B87GXOCs%3D&am
| p;reserved=0
| > > [3]:
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.
| com%2Fhaskellweekly%2Fhaskellweekly.github.io%2Fissues%2F206&data=02
| %7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C9fbbfac1fd9e420bbf2008d63238f7c4%7C72f
| 988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636751617595812242&sdata=v2b
| W4fjDtWrJnKACnQaoLRoaYw0kADGucwasn2X0wtI%3D&reserved=0
| > > _______________________________________________
| > > Haskell-community mailing list
| > > Haskell-community at haskell.org
| > >
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| 5812242&sdata=2SB8gyaEQI2zxvUE%2FEdw%2B%2B2OLcJW10hpH8A1McoP0MY%3D&a
| mp;reserved=0
| > >
| > >
| > > _______________________________________________
| > > Haskell-community mailing list
| > > Haskell-community at haskell.org
| > >
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