[Haskell-cafe] Missing messages in the ML

Mon Nov 22 08:17:55 UTC 2021

Let me cite my message from another thread where messages were being
lost (BTW, I fully expect you didn't receive this message originally
and some of you may not receive it now; if anybody can see a
particular problem with our list and a possible solution, please
contact Haskell infrastructure team):

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:02 AM Mikolaj Konarski
<mikolaj at well-typed.com> wrote:
>
> > I have not received your message from 4:05 PM at all, nor the message
> > from Tom Ellis that I see at
>
> Apparently avoiding both spam and lost emails is impossible nowadays,
> but I'm told the situation should improve after a recent upgrade,
> update of a SPF record for one of mail.haskell.org servers and
> gradually while our servers are regaining reputation.
>
> For all of us on the list: let's not assume somebody that is repeating
> our point has seen our email --- it may have been lost or withheld for
> a time. Makes sense to ask for confirmation and also try to join
> divergent threads of the same email discussion (if the topic did not
> diverge).
>
> On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 4:56 PM Simon Jakobi
> <simon.jakobi at googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Huh, I think there must be something amiss between mail.haskell.org and GMail.
> >
> > I have not received your message from 4:05 PM at all, nor the message
> > from Tom Ellis that I see at
> > https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2021-November/134848.html.
> >
> > Am Sa., 13. Nov. 2021 um 16:48 Uhr schrieb Mikolaj Konarski
> > <mikolaj at well-typed.com>:
> > >
> > > Off-topic, would it be possible to reduce the latency of mail.haskell.org?
> > >
> > > It's quite frustrating if your message is a dupe and even more if it
> > > seems as if the other person ignored your message and wrote the stuff
> > > one again. While, in fact, the messages were 10 minutes in flight and
> > > then arrived in reverse order.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 4:05 PM Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > BTW, Sven, my sources say, running `haskell-ci 'github'` as opposed to
> > > > `haskell-ci 'travis'` may give better results.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 2:39 PM Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I can just offer testing haskell-ci patches etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you. I'm sure other haskell-ci contributors can use this help,
> > > > > if they read this. In general, that's a great idea, supporting our
> > > > > developers in other ways than just code contributions, e.g., via
> > > > > general positivity, appreciation, goodwill, expressions of hope,
> > > > > uplifting user stories. They are bombarded with (impersonal)
> > > > > negativity all the time via bug reports.
> > > > >
> > > > > > The project I used as a trial balloon for haskell-ci is really dead simple, how are other projects handling this? It must be an extremely common use case, and I doubt that everybody writes the workflows by hand: This would be silly, basically all needed information is already in the .cabal file.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm afraid, since hvr stopped updating the PPA images (and other
> > > > > things), the Haskell tool ecosystem is in the very sorry and silly
> > > > > state you describe. Given that at this stage it's too late to help
> > > > > hvr, let's make sure to support Julian with ghcup (and other things)
> > > > > so that our ecosystem doesn't break up again, once we port haskell-ci
> > > > > to ghcup (if I'm guessing correctly where haskell-ci is going).
> > > > >
> > > > > > Other projects like e.g. lens seem to use haskell-ci successfully, see https://github.com/ekmett/lens/blob/master/.github/workflows/haskell-ci.yml. But that YAML file looks quite a bit different from what haskell-ci has generated for my project. Why?
> > > > >
> > > > > Because it's been edited by hand for 11 months.
> > > > >
> > > > > > As usual, the Haskell tool ecosystem is giving me a hard time... :´-(
> > > > >
> > > > > I sympathise.
> > > > >
> > > > > All the best,
> > > > > Mikolaj
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> > > To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to:
> > > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
> > > Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 8:38 AM Tom Smeding <x at tomsmeding.com> wrote:
>
> I got at least one message from Tom Ellis in the Logging conversation, one from Joachim Durchholz, and some more. I'm definitely not included in the conversation personnally.
>
>
> I have no idea what might be going wrong, but I think it's not forgetting to reply to all.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On 22 Nov 2021, 08:18, Kim-Ee Yeoh < ky3 at atamo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps not gremlins in the ether but the reply button that folks hit on their web mail doesn’t include the mailing list. Hence, it wasn’t reflected to us.
>
> Subsequently, someone in the convo noticed the absence and included haskell cafe back in. Then we see the missing messages as quoted replies.
>
> How to fix this? Two possible approaches:
>
> 1. Remind folks to Reply to All.
>
> 2. Change the mailing list settings so that webmail reply goes to the list by default. Privatizing the convo—previously the default—is still doable. The haskell beginners list took this decision years ago.
>
> I believe option 2 has been suggested previously.
>
> This is a consequence of most folks migrating to webmail from unix mail clients that were a bit smarter in being able to recognize unix-driven mailing lists. (At least that’s my guess how we got here.)
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 1:42 PM Bryan Richter <b at chreekat.net> wrote:
>>
>> The *only* messages I've seen on this thread are from MigMit. I guess at least two other people have posted, but I don't see them. Not in spam, either. Hmm
>>
>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021, 0.34 MigMit, <migmit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> No, non-UTC logs are a nightmare when you have developers living in different time zones. Or even in one that is different from the one where the logs come from. Not only does it still have the same overhead, but it also adds DST troubles to the mix (yes, DST does not start at the same time everywhere) and is generally MORE confusing than just having everything in UTC.
>>>
>>> Also, editors might be fast... but only if you don't have too much logs. I did work on one project where daily logs took tens of gigabytes in gzip. Editors were out of question, trying to load this in Emacs would just hang it. Things like zgrep were pretty much the only thing that could work. Another project simply used Datadog, and was way easier to work with, despite it being a web interface.
>>>
>>> There could be some specific cases where logging in a local time zone is a good idea, but I don't think that happens often enough.
>>>
>>> > On 21 Nov 2021, at 22:47, Joachim Durchholz <jo at durchholz.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Am 21.11.21 um 19:18 schrieb Tom Ellis:
>>> >> It sounds really unwise to log timestamps in anything in other than
>>> >> UTC.  If you want to see the logged times in your local timezone then
>>> >> why not apply that conversion when you read the log?
>>> >
>>> > UTC is wise only if you really have to deal with data originating from multiple timezones.
>>> > Otherwise, it's just an additional interpretation step that makes it harder to read the raw logs - which not a very rare use case actually, editors are still the fastest way to find specific log records after all (mostly because you don't have to learn the web interface du jour just to search for something).
>>> >
>>> > E.g. the application I'm working with logs to text files, and it always runs in the same time zone.
>>> > UTC is just an extra hoop to jump through, with no added benefit.
>>> > (Some users do live in a separate time zone, but we rarely need to correlate user-side and server-side logs, we go by session ids anyway.)
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Jo
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>>> > To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to:
>>> > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>> > Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>>> To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to:
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>> Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to:
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>> Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.
>
> --
> -- Kim-Ee
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to:
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
> Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.