[Haskell-cafe] Poll & plea: State of GUI & graphics libraries in Haskell

Fri Oct 4 15:23:52 UTC 2013

I don't think I would quite say haskell-game is quite relevant. For that
matter, the implementation on GitHub is not very good. It's too complicated
to scale and too specialized. I've been starting a fresh implementation,
since I learned a lot about what I really want to do writing that, but it
is not public yet.

That said, I think our efforts on haskell-game are definitely complementary
with efforts to improve GUI programming with Haskell, and we should
collaborate where it makes sense.

On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Alp Mestanogullari <alpmestan at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I have been willing to have a nice GUI DSEL with good aesthetics for a
> while. I think the hardest part wouldn't be the API, but really what
> library we use underneath so that it's cross-platform and easy to install
> for everyone. But I would love for something like that to happen and am
> very interested in this.
>
> Note that people from #haskell-game are experimenting a bit (I think it's
> mostly Jake McArthur's work for now), see the brainstorming (ideas) and
> graphics (partial impl) repositories at [1].
>
>     [1]: https://github.com/haskell-game
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Conal Elliott <conal at conal.net> wrote:
>
>> Interesting. How are the aesthetics? Can you point me to screen shots?
>>
>> It'd be a lot of work, but one cool project would be to create
>> *beautiful* GUI elements using OpenGL programmable shaders. Given the speed
>> of GPUs, we could afford to put a lot into visual details.
>>
>> A complementary project is designing a semantically precise and elegant
>> ("denotative"/"genuinely functional" to use Peter Landin's terms) GUI DSEL
>> that would be simpler and more powerful than the conventional OO-inspired
>> libraries we have so much trouble getting to work in Haskell. I've thought
>> about this sort of thing on and off for a very long time and would be happy
>> to be involved if others are interested also.
>>
>> Together, these two efforts would yield an approach to GUIs that is
>> beautiful inside and out.
>>
>> -- Conal
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Paul Liu <ninegua at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No. GLFW does not give you any UI elements, just basic windowing and
>>> input handling.
>>>
>>> Euterpea has a UI layer on top of GLFW that provides text boxes and
>>> sliders, etc, entirely written in Haskell.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Conal Elliott <conal at conal.net> wrote:
>>> > Hi Paul. Is there a way to use GLFW with GUI elements other than OpenGL
>>> > display windows, e.g., text boxes and sliders?  -- Conal
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Paul Liu <ninegua at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks. I've just built GHC HEAD on Mac OS X Lion, and tested by
>>> >> installing libraries with --enable-shared and loading a GLFW program
>>> >> into GHCi. Using ghci -fno-ghci-sandbox, everything works great
>>> >> including closing and restarting GL window multiple times. Can't wait
>>> >> for the  official release of GHC 7.8!
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Carter Schonwald
>>> >> <carter.schonwald at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > thats the linker bug.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > the glfw stuff has been tested on ghc HEAD / 7.7 by folks on
>>> >> > #haskell-game
>>> >> > in recent memory. GHCI + foreign libs should work fine now (modulo
>>> >> > thread
>>> >> > local storage related thing).
>>> >> >
>>> >> > the historical element doesn't matter any more.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > To the best of my knowledge, all such issues should be gone. Anyone
>>> who
>>> >> > cares about making sure GHCI+ gui libs play nice, PLEASE test with
>>> HEAD.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > the better this issue is properly tested (which i believe it has
>>> been),
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > more we can actually prevent it from happening. This requires
>>> people to
>>> >> > test
>>> >> > with HEAD GHCi now, rather than doing archaeology.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > anyone who cares, please play with GHCI in HEAD. If your lib doesn't
>>> >> > work
>>> >> > with ghci, please report a bug. It would be a new bug because it
>>> wont'
>>> >> > be
>>> >> > the previous reasons it hasnt' worked.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > tl;dr to the best of my knowledge this issue is resolved in HEAD.
>>> Test
>>> >> > HEAD.
>>> >> > Help us make sure it stays resolved by testing HEAD.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > thanks
>>> >> > -Carter
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Paul Liu <ninegua at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I reported a problem with statically linked GLFW library on Mac OS
>>> X
>>> >> >> Lion in this thread:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-January/097355.html
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I do not know why this is broken on Mac OS X Lion, but not on
>>> Linux or
>>> >> >> Windows. There was an EnableGUI hack for GHC 7.2 (and previous
>>> >> >> versions) and OS X version before Lion, but it no longer works. So
>>> I'm
>>> >> >> not sure if it is OS X Lion, or GLFW, or GHC, or a combination of
>>> them
>>> >> >> that caused this problem.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Regards,
>>> >> >> Paul Liu
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 7:04 AM, Carter Schonwald
>>> >> >> <carter.schonwald at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> > Hey simon, the two issues that have recurrently bit ghci
>>> interaction
>>> >> >> > with
>>> >> >> > foreign GUI libs are
>>> >> >> > 1) the ghci linker.  This is fixed in head by now having ghci
>>> use the
>>> >> >> > system
>>> >> >> > linker
>>> >> >> > 2) some GUI libs require thread local state, and ghci has a flag
>>> for
>>> >> >> > that
>>> >> >> > 3)  I'm not aware of anyone reporting newly broken libs wrt GUI
>>> >> >> > bindings
>>> >> >> > when 7.6 rolled out.  The only fix that's relevant to 7.8 is the
>>> >> >> > dylinker
>>> >> >> > bit, but that would have been a problem historically too.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > I believe a number of folks in #haskell-game have recently tested
>>> >> >> > point
>>> >> >> > one.
>>> >> >> > (Though I should ask to double check)
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > At the very least, I'm not aware of hearing of such a 7.6
>>> specific
>>> >> >> > ghci
>>> >> >> > breakage before.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > On Tuesday, October 1, 2013, Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Dear GHC devs
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> See below (in red).  I do not know the details of this, but it
>>> >> >> >> sounds
>>> >> >> >> like
>>> >> >> >> a pretty serious problem, and it used to work.  Is
>>> whatever-it-is
>>> >> >> >> confirmed
>>> >> >> >> fixed in 7.8?  Do we have a test that?ll trip if it breaks
>>> again?
>>> >> >> >> (I?m
>>> >> >> >> guessing that the latter might be hard.)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Thanks
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Simon
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> >> >> From: Haskell-Cafe [mailto:haskell-cafe-bounces at haskell.org] On
>>> >> >> >> Behalf
>>> >> >> >> Of
>>> >> >> >> Paul Liu
>>> >> >> >> Sent: 30 September 2013 07:18
>>> >> >> >> To: Conal Elliott
>>> >> >> >> Cc: Haskell Cafe
>>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Poll & plea: State of GUI & graphics
>>> >> >> >> libraries
>>> >> >> >> in Haskell
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Hi Conal,
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> I wasn't able to make it to last Saturday's FARM track, but I
>>> think
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> there was a good chance that Paul would have demonstrated his
>>> >> >> >> Euterpea
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> music library, which includes a GUI interface (called MUI)
>>> written
>>> >> >> >> on
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> top of GLFW. I wrote its initial implementation (around 2009?)
>>> with
>>> >> >> >> a
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> monadic interface that let you wire together UI components with
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> signals (I believe Dan later wrote an arrow interface, but I
>>> could
>>> >> >> >> be
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> wrong). It was actually inspired by the ideas behind your
>>> Phooey UI
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> library. It should be very easy to extract this part out as a
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> standalone package if there is enough interest.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> The only issue with it (and all other UI libraries) is that it
>>> >> >> >> doesn't
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> play nicely in GHCi. It used to work pretty well with GHC 7.2
>>> and
>>> >> >> >> 7.4
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> on almost all platforms (Mac needs an extra hack), but GHC 7.6
>>> broke
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Mac (and perhaps Windows too). GHC 7.8 supposedly should fix
>>> this
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> problem.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> BTW, as also the author of the GLFW library on HackageDB, I've
>>> done
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> barely minimal to keep this Haskell binding afloat. I'm actually
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> leaning towards GLFW-b library, which is better maintained, and
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> provides similar binding for GLFW C library but with a saner
>>> >> >> >> interface
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (no dependency on the OpenGL library, for example). If you don't
>>> >> >> >> need
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> the two extra things that GLFW does (choice of either dynamic or
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> static linking to GLFW C, and an embedded bitmap font), I
>>> suggest
>>> >> >> >> you
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> try out GLFW-b if you are only looking for a think graphics
>>> layer
>>> >> >> >> with
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> input+window+OpenGL.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> The only thing keeping GLFW-b from becoming a good foundation
>>> for a
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> pure Haskell UI lib is IMHO the lack of a light-weight,
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> cross-platform, and full-featured font rendering solution. I
>>> believe
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> many other libraries (including Diagram) are having the same
>>> >> >> >> problem.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Conal Elliott <conal at conal.net
>>> >
>>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > I'm polling to see whether there are will and expertise to
>>> reboot
>>> >> >> >> > graphics
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > and GUIs work in Haskell. I miss working on functional
>>> graphics
>>> >> >> >> > and
>>> >> >> >> > GUIs
>>> >> >> >> > in
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > Haskell, as I've been blocked for several years (eight?) due
>>> to
>>> >> >> >> > the
>>> >> >> >> > absence
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > of low-level foundation libraries having the following
>>> properties:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > * cross-platform,
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > * easily buildable,
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > * GHCi-friendly, and
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > * OpenGL-compatible.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > The last several times I tried Gtk2hs, I was unable to
>>> compile it
>>> >> >> >> > on
>>> >> >> >> > my
>>> >> >> >> > Mac.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > Years ago when I was able to compile, the GUIs looked and
>>> >> >> >> > interacted
>>> >> >> >> > like a
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > Linux app, which made them awkward and upleasant to use.
>>> wxHaskell
>>> >> >> >> > (whose
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > API and visual appearance I prefered) has for years been
>>> >> >> >> > incompatible
>>> >> >> >> > with
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > GHCi, in that the second time I open a top-level window, the
>>> host
>>> >> >> >> > process
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > (GHCi) dies abruptly. Since my GUI & graphics programs are
>>> often
>>> >> >> >> > one-liners,
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > and I tend to experiment a lot, using a full compilation
>>> greatly
>>> >> >> >> > thwarts
>>> >> >> >> > my
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > flow. For many years, I've thought that the situation would
>>> >> >> >> > eventually
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > improve, since I'm far from the only person who wants GUIs or
>>> >> >> >> > graphics
>>> >> >> >> > from
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > Haskell.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > About three years ago, I built a modern replacement of my old
>>> Pan
>>> >> >> >> > and
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > V
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> > ghc-devs mailing list
>>> >> >> > ghc-devs at haskell.org
>>> >> >> > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >> Regards,
>>> >> >> Paul Liu
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Regards,
>>> >> Paul Liu
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> ghc-devs mailing list
>>> >> ghc-devs at haskell.org
>>> >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>> Paul Liu
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Alp Mestanogullari
>
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