[ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
Alejandro Serrano Mena
trupill at gmail.com
Wed Sep 30 20:12:07 UTC 2020
Of course, I could also write some proposal, and then we can use the usual
PR mechanism to discuss it.
Alejandro
El mié., 30 sept. 2020 a las 22:06, Alejandro Serrano Mena (<
trupill at gmail.com>) escribió:
> Dear all,
> I've started working on a proposal for GHC2020. You can see the current
> status here:
> https://github.com/serras/ghc-proposals/blob/ghc-2020/proposals/0000-ghc-2020.md
>
> I noticed the list by Richard was not exhaustive. Those extensions are
> headed by "In discussion". Preferably we should make up our minds before
> presenting the proposal. I would say there are three big groups of
> proposals. Any feedback is welcome on that part.
>
> Regards,
> Alejandrp
>
> El mar., 29 sept. 2020 a las 18:38, Iavor Diatchki (<
> iavor.diatchki at gmail.com>) escribió:
>
>> Thanks Alejandro. My preference would be that you share whatever you
>> come up with the list so we can discuss it, before making a proposal that
>> would represent the committee.
>> -Iavor
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:07 AM Simon Peyton Jones via
>> ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org> wrote:
>>
>>> OK by me. Thank you
>>>
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ghc-steering-committee <
>>> ghc-steering-committee-bounces at haskell.org> *On Behalf Of *Alejandro
>>> Serrano Mena
>>> *Sent:* 29 September 2020 15:51
>>> *To:* Richard Eisenberg <rae at richarde.dev>
>>> *Cc:* ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am still happy to drive this! I was not sure about whether we agreed
>>> as a Committee on pushing this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To make this more actionable, my goal is, *during next Sunday*, to
>>> create a new proposal with the *criteria* (based on Richard + Simon's
>>> list), and a preliminary assessment of which of the *current extensions*
>>> satisfy these criteria, and for those we might be willing to grant
>>> *exceptions*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please raise your voice if you think we should proceed otherwise (or if
>>> you think we should not proceed at all!).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Alejandro
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El mar., 29 sept. 2020 a las 16:29, Richard Eisenberg (<rae at richarde.dev>)
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> What's the status of this push? I was delighted to see that Alejandro
>>> volunteered to be a motive force on this idea, and have thus refrained (as
>>> I am pushing on other ideas, too). But I also don't want this to die. :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 17, 2020, at 11:39 AM, Alejandro Serrano Mena <trupill at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with using the criteria that Richard posted + the addition by
>>> Simon. Just in case somebody hadn't looked at the wiki, the criteria would
>>> be:
>>>
>>> 1. The extension is (mostly) conservative: All programs that were
>>> accepted without the extension remain accepted, and with the same meaning.
>>> 2. New failure modes that become possible with the extension are
>>> rare and/or easy to diagnose. (These failure modes include new error
>>> messages, wrong inferred types, and runtime errors, for example.)
>>> 3. The extensions complement the design of standard Haskell. (This
>>> one seems the most subjective.)
>>> 4. The extension has been -- and can reasonably be predicted to
>>> remain -- stable.
>>> 5. The extension is not to gate-keep an advanced or
>>> potentially-unsafe feature.
>>> 6. The extension is widely-used.
>>>
>>> For example, should we add to (6) "in current developments"? What about
>>> things like "EmptyDataDecls", which are just straightforward
>>> generalizations of what Haskell 2010 already allows, although in practice
>>> the only data type you would ever need to be empty is "Void"?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Alejandro
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El jue., 17 sept. 2020 a las 16:42, Simon Marlow (<marlowsd at gmail.com>)
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> I think there should be some requirement that an extension be
>>> widely-used (for some suitable definition of that), before we ratify it in
>>> GHC2020. Some of the extensions that made it past the first round of
>>> filtering are not widely-used, and would be therefore probably be
>>> controversial additions to a language standard - e.g. ViewPatterns,
>>> ParallelListComp, RecursiveDo to name a few that I noticed straight off. I
>>> think it's a good idea to be conservative here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 10:29, Spiwack, Arnaud <arnaud.spiwack at tweag.io>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> There seems to be some question about who should drive this debate. But
>>> there is something we all seem to agree on: it is our role, as the steering
>>> committee, to announce the criteria by which we intend to judge the
>>> reasonableness of each potential candidate extension.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, let me suggest that we start discussing that, and move back to how
>>> this discussion ought to be driven when we are a bit clearer on the
>>> criteria.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard wrote a bunch of criteria in the wiki page upthread [1]. I think
>>> that they are worthy of discussion. So let me ask the question: do we agree
>>> with all these criteria? do we want to add more?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]: https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/wiki/GHC2020
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc-proposals%2Fwiki%2FGHC2020&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cf5ac3d83a2294463146608d864875f01%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637369880634558661&sdata=8ZlvyXrW6%2Bj2GdlPu6pIOOfbrV%2FdtLNdi8LyaTewKZA%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 12:17 PM Alejandro Serrano Mena <
>>> trupill at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would rather make the process Committee-driven, because otherwise it
>>> may derail into too many micro-discussions. I think it's better to start a
>>> conversation saying "this is our proposal, here are our criteria, here are
>>> the exceptions we want to make", and then discuss from there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Alejandro
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El mar., 8 sept. 2020 a las 14:01, Eric Seidel (<eric at seidel.io>)
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> I think we may want to have the Committee initiate and drive the
>>> process. I think a GHC20XX proposal will turn into a bunch of micro
>>> proposals and discussions about individual (groups of) extensions, and it
>>> will be hard to track all of the threads of discussion in a single GitHub
>>> thread. We’ve dealt with long and contentious discussions before, but they
>>> were much more focused than GHC20XX will be, by design.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I suggested earlier that an alternative strategy could be to open a new
>>> repo where the community can collaborate on GHC20XX via a familiar PR-based
>>> process, with each proposed group of extensions getting its own PR and
>>> discussion. There are a few open questions here though. When/how do we
>>> decide that it’s time for a new standard? How do we decide when the full
>>> proposal is ready for review? Do we need to review and sign off on each
>>> group of extensions separately or only the final product?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This process would be a lot more work for us, so I’m happy to try the
>>> usual process first, and I’ll be happy to be proved wrong. But we should be
>>> prepared to step in and add some more structure if needed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regardless, the first step should be to update our docs to express
>>> interest in GHC20XX proposals, establish criteria for including language
>>> extensions, and outline a process for submitting them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 8, 2020, at 06:37, Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Personally I don’t think we should make the Steering Committee
>>> responsible for initiating or driving this. We should
>>>
>>> · establish the criteria (including some idea of how frequently
>>> we’d be open to creating a new GHCxx version),
>>>
>>> · express open-ness to a proposal, and then
>>>
>>> · review proposals when/if they materialise.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It’d be fine for Alejandro, as an individual, to be a proposer. But
>>> that’s different from making the committee *responsible*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What do others think?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Alejandro Serrano Mena <trupill at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* 08 September 2020 09:13
>>> *To:* Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
>>> *Cc:* Richard Eisenberg <rae at richarde.dev>; Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io>;
>>> ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I would really like to move this forward, and I would be happy to put
>>> some work on it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you think of the following plan?
>>>
>>> - Create a ghc-proposal based on the (awesome) wiki page by Richard. I
>>> think the criteria in the wiki are quite nice. Explain that one of the
>>> goals is to encompass as many stable extensions as possible.
>>>
>>> - Reformat the list to make 3 tables: one for extensions which satisfy
>>> all 5 criteria, one for extensions we want to include even if they don't,
>>> and one for those which should be rejected in the light of those criteria.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If the process works well, we could think about instaurating a
>>> yearly/bi-yearly/n-yearly process to create new -XGHC20XX versions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Alejandro
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El lun., 7 sept. 2020 a las 17:32, Simon Peyton Jones via
>>> ghc-steering-committee (<ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org>) escribió:
>>>
>>> Just back from holiday. Some thoughts
>>>
>>> * I don’t think this mailing list is the best place for the
>>> discussion. Basically, it's a GHC Proposal, so someone (possibly
>>> a committee member, possibly not) should write a proposal,
>>> and we should put it through the process.
>>>
>>> * We should advertise the criteria, as Richard has done on the
>>> wiki page.
>>>
>>> * Any such proposal should be informed by data. Notably, extension usage
>>> in Hackage, or perhaps Stackage (since it's a bit more curated).
>>>
>>> * A proposer might also want to run a public poll, as an additional
>>> source of data
>>>
>>> * When it comes to the committee, we can (I guess) vote on individual
>>> extensions, rather than just accept/reject the whole thing.
>>>
>>> I am intrigued by the idea of using Kialo to coordinate discussion.
>>> Maybe it'd work better than GitHub? Are there other alternatives?
>>> But that's orthogonal to the GHC 2020 idea; let's not conflate them.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> | -----Original Message-----
>>> | From: ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee-
>>> | bounces at haskell.org> On Behalf Of Richard Eisenberg
>>> | Sent: 02 September 2020 14:57
>>> | To: Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io>
>>> | Cc: ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
>>> | Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
>>> |
>>> | It seems clear that my wiki idea isn't winning the day -- I never
>>> | really liked it either. I'd be fine with either Eric's or Joachim's
>>> | approaches. Maybe start with Joachim's approach and then use Eric's
>>> | when Joachim's runs out of steam? A big minus, though, to Joachim's
>>> | approach is that it seems hard to get good community involvement.
>>> |
>>> | Richard
>>> |
>>> | > On Sep 2, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io> wrote:
>>> | >
>>> | > Opening a regular discussion about whether and how we want to work
>>> on
>>> | GHC 2020 sounds fine, that will also give the community a place to
>>> | weigh in. I do think the eventual contents should be informed by the
>>> | community though, it shouldn’t just be us working alone.
>>> | >
>>> | > Sent from my iPhone
>>> | >
>>> | >> On Sep 2, 2020, at 03:16, Joachim Breitner <mail at joachim-
>>> | breitner.de
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreitner.de%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cf5ac3d83a2294463146608d864875f01%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637369880634568657&sdata=GGl8%2FgEX%2FUMSS1IAp5x11aht%2F%2B6xQY8%2Fqa37aySDtPc%3D&reserved=0>>
>>> wrote:
>>> | >>
>>> | >> Hi,
>>> | >>
>>> | >> sounds plausible. It would also allow us to use tags to easily
>>> | indicate
>>> | >> the status (e.g. clearly-not, definitely-yes, kinda-contested…),
>>> and
>>> | >> then filter by issue to get the current list…
>>> | >>
>>> | >> But before we go there, shouldn’t we maybe have a discussion first
>>> | on
>>> | >>
>>> | >> * do we even want that?
>>> | >> * what are the abstract criteria (or guidelines)?
>>> | >> * what is the process?
>>> | >>
>>> | >> I believe that discussion could be done like any other proposal.
>>> | >>
>>> | >>
>>> | >> As for the process; when I brought up the idea, I was worried about
>>> | us
>>> | >> spending huge resources discussion individual extensions to death,
>>> | and
>>> | >> proposed, in the interest of efficiency and getting things done:
>>> | >>
>>> | >>> The process could be: Every member can nominate any number of
>>> | >>> extensions, to include, maybe a small rationale and then we do one
>>> | >>> round of independent approval voting, requiring a supermajority to
>>> | >>> really only pick uncontested extensions.
>>> | >>
>>> | >> So instead of long debates, we start with GHC2020 being just those
>>> | >> extensions that a supermajority on the committee considers to be
>>> ok.
>>> | >>
>>> | >> This is much more lightweight process that we could get done in a
>>> | week
>>> | >> or two (maybe using a doodle-like voting page). Maybe we would
>>> leave
>>> | >> out one or two extension that initially people are reserved about,
>>> | but
>>> | >> could be swayed after lengthy discussions. But is that worth the
>>> | >> lengthy discussion?
>>> | >>
>>> | >> cheers,
>>> | >> Joachim
>>> | >>
>>> | >> --
>>> | >> Joachim Breitner
>>> | >> mail at joachim-breitner.de
>>> | >>
>>> |
>>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jo
>>> | achim-
>>> | breitner.de
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreitner.de%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cf5ac3d83a2294463146608d864875f01%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637369880634568657&sdata=GGl8%2FgEX%2FUMSS1IAp5x11aht%2F%2B6xQY8%2Fqa37aySDtPc%3D&reserved=0>
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>>> | >>
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>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.haskell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-steering-committee&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cf5ac3d83a2294463146608d864875f01%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637369880634628621&sdata=vnuBB%2FuVonv5m0u%2FYYrHzoTmwNtQV4QLwTHMVD6YK9c%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ghc-steering-committee mailing list
>>> ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
>>> https://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-steering-committee
>>>
>>
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