[ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
Alejandro Serrano Mena
trupill at gmail.com
Wed Sep 30 20:06:25 UTC 2020
Dear all,
I've started working on a proposal for GHC2020. You can see the current
status here:
https://github.com/serras/ghc-proposals/blob/ghc-2020/proposals/0000-ghc-2020.md
I noticed the list by Richard was not exhaustive. Those extensions are
headed by "In discussion". Preferably we should make up our minds before
presenting the proposal. I would say there are three big groups of
proposals. Any feedback is welcome on that part.
Regards,
Alejandrp
El mar., 29 sept. 2020 a las 18:38, Iavor Diatchki (<
iavor.diatchki at gmail.com>) escribió:
> Thanks Alejandro. My preference would be that you share whatever you come
> up with the list so we can discuss it, before making a proposal that would
> represent the committee.
> -Iavor
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:07 AM Simon Peyton Jones via
> ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org> wrote:
>
>> OK by me. Thank you
>>
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ghc-steering-committee <
>> ghc-steering-committee-bounces at haskell.org> *On Behalf Of *Alejandro
>> Serrano Mena
>> *Sent:* 29 September 2020 15:51
>> *To:* Richard Eisenberg <rae at richarde.dev>
>> *Cc:* ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
>>
>>
>>
>> I am still happy to drive this! I was not sure about whether we agreed as
>> a Committee on pushing this.
>>
>>
>>
>> To make this more actionable, my goal is, *during next Sunday*, to
>> create a new proposal with the *criteria* (based on Richard + Simon's
>> list), and a preliminary assessment of which of the *current extensions*
>> satisfy these criteria, and for those we might be willing to grant
>> *exceptions*.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please raise your voice if you think we should proceed otherwise (or if
>> you think we should not proceed at all!).
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Alejandro
>>
>>
>>
>> El mar., 29 sept. 2020 a las 16:29, Richard Eisenberg (<rae at richarde.dev>)
>> escribió:
>>
>> What's the status of this push? I was delighted to see that Alejandro
>> volunteered to be a motive force on this idea, and have thus refrained (as
>> I am pushing on other ideas, too). But I also don't want this to die. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 17, 2020, at 11:39 AM, Alejandro Serrano Mena <trupill at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with using the criteria that Richard posted + the addition by
>> Simon. Just in case somebody hadn't looked at the wiki, the criteria would
>> be:
>>
>> 1. The extension is (mostly) conservative: All programs that were
>> accepted without the extension remain accepted, and with the same meaning.
>> 2. New failure modes that become possible with the extension are rare
>> and/or easy to diagnose. (These failure modes include new error messages,
>> wrong inferred types, and runtime errors, for example.)
>> 3. The extensions complement the design of standard Haskell. (This
>> one seems the most subjective.)
>> 4. The extension has been -- and can reasonably be predicted to
>> remain -- stable.
>> 5. The extension is not to gate-keep an advanced or
>> potentially-unsafe feature.
>> 6. The extension is widely-used.
>>
>> For example, should we add to (6) "in current developments"? What about
>> things like "EmptyDataDecls", which are just straightforward
>> generalizations of what Haskell 2010 already allows, although in practice
>> the only data type you would ever need to be empty is "Void"?
>>
>>
>>
>> Alejandro
>>
>>
>>
>> El jue., 17 sept. 2020 a las 16:42, Simon Marlow (<marlowsd at gmail.com>)
>> escribió:
>>
>> I think there should be some requirement that an extension be widely-used
>> (for some suitable definition of that), before we ratify it in GHC2020.
>> Some of the extensions that made it past the first round of filtering are
>> not widely-used, and would be therefore probably be controversial additions
>> to a language standard - e.g. ViewPatterns, ParallelListComp, RecursiveDo
>> to name a few that I noticed straight off. I think it's a good idea to be
>> conservative here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 10:29, Spiwack, Arnaud <arnaud.spiwack at tweag.io>
>> wrote:
>>
>> There seems to be some question about who should drive this debate. But
>> there is something we all seem to agree on: it is our role, as the steering
>> committee, to announce the criteria by which we intend to judge the
>> reasonableness of each potential candidate extension.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, let me suggest that we start discussing that, and move back to how
>> this discussion ought to be driven when we are a bit clearer on the
>> criteria.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard wrote a bunch of criteria in the wiki page upthread [1]. I think
>> that they are worthy of discussion. So let me ask the question: do we agree
>> with all these criteria? do we want to add more?
>>
>>
>>
>> [1]: https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/wiki/GHC2020
>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc-proposals%2Fwiki%2FGHC2020&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cf5ac3d83a2294463146608d864875f01%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637369880634558661&sdata=8ZlvyXrW6%2Bj2GdlPu6pIOOfbrV%2FdtLNdi8LyaTewKZA%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 12:17 PM Alejandro Serrano Mena <trupill at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I would rather make the process Committee-driven, because otherwise it
>> may derail into too many micro-discussions. I think it's better to start a
>> conversation saying "this is our proposal, here are our criteria, here are
>> the exceptions we want to make", and then discuss from there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Alejandro
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> El mar., 8 sept. 2020 a las 14:01, Eric Seidel (<eric at seidel.io>)
>> escribió:
>>
>> I think we may want to have the Committee initiate and drive the process.
>> I think a GHC20XX proposal will turn into a bunch of micro proposals and
>> discussions about individual (groups of) extensions, and it will be hard to
>> track all of the threads of discussion in a single GitHub thread. We’ve
>> dealt with long and contentious discussions before, but they were much more
>> focused than GHC20XX will be, by design.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suggested earlier that an alternative strategy could be to open a new
>> repo where the community can collaborate on GHC20XX via a familiar PR-based
>> process, with each proposed group of extensions getting its own PR and
>> discussion. There are a few open questions here though. When/how do we
>> decide that it’s time for a new standard? How do we decide when the full
>> proposal is ready for review? Do we need to review and sign off on each
>> group of extensions separately or only the final product?
>>
>>
>>
>> This process would be a lot more work for us, so I’m happy to try the
>> usual process first, and I’ll be happy to be proved wrong. But we should be
>> prepared to step in and add some more structure if needed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regardless, the first step should be to update our docs to express
>> interest in GHC20XX proposals, establish criteria for including language
>> extensions, and outline a process for submitting them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 8, 2020, at 06:37, Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally I don’t think we should make the Steering Committee
>> responsible for initiating or driving this. We should
>>
>> · establish the criteria (including some idea of how frequently
>> we’d be open to creating a new GHCxx version),
>>
>> · express open-ness to a proposal, and then
>>
>> · review proposals when/if they materialise.
>>
>>
>>
>> It’d be fine for Alejandro, as an individual, to be a proposer. But
>> that’s different from making the committee *responsible*.
>>
>>
>>
>> What do others think?
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Alejandro Serrano Mena <trupill at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* 08 September 2020 09:13
>> *To:* Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Richard Eisenberg <rae at richarde.dev>; Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io>;
>> ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I would really like to move this forward, and I would be happy to put
>> some work on it.
>>
>>
>>
>> What do you think of the following plan?
>>
>> - Create a ghc-proposal based on the (awesome) wiki page by Richard. I
>> think the criteria in the wiki are quite nice. Explain that one of the
>> goals is to encompass as many stable extensions as possible.
>>
>> - Reformat the list to make 3 tables: one for extensions which satisfy
>> all 5 criteria, one for extensions we want to include even if they don't,
>> and one for those which should be rejected in the light of those criteria.
>>
>>
>>
>> If the process works well, we could think about instaurating a
>> yearly/bi-yearly/n-yearly process to create new -XGHC20XX versions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Alejandro
>>
>>
>>
>> El lun., 7 sept. 2020 a las 17:32, Simon Peyton Jones via
>> ghc-steering-committee (<ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org>) escribió:
>>
>> Just back from holiday. Some thoughts
>>
>> * I don’t think this mailing list is the best place for the
>> discussion. Basically, it's a GHC Proposal, so someone (possibly
>> a committee member, possibly not) should write a proposal,
>> and we should put it through the process.
>>
>> * We should advertise the criteria, as Richard has done on the
>> wiki page.
>>
>> * Any such proposal should be informed by data. Notably, extension usage
>> in Hackage, or perhaps Stackage (since it's a bit more curated).
>>
>> * A proposer might also want to run a public poll, as an additional
>> source of data
>>
>> * When it comes to the committee, we can (I guess) vote on individual
>> extensions, rather than just accept/reject the whole thing.
>>
>> I am intrigued by the idea of using Kialo to coordinate discussion.
>> Maybe it'd work better than GitHub? Are there other alternatives?
>> But that's orthogonal to the GHC 2020 idea; let's not conflate them.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> | -----Original Message-----
>> | From: ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee-
>> | bounces at haskell.org> On Behalf Of Richard Eisenberg
>> | Sent: 02 September 2020 14:57
>> | To: Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io>
>> | Cc: ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
>> | Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
>> |
>> | It seems clear that my wiki idea isn't winning the day -- I never
>> | really liked it either. I'd be fine with either Eric's or Joachim's
>> | approaches. Maybe start with Joachim's approach and then use Eric's
>> | when Joachim's runs out of steam? A big minus, though, to Joachim's
>> | approach is that it seems hard to get good community involvement.
>> |
>> | Richard
>> |
>> | > On Sep 2, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io> wrote:
>> | >
>> | > Opening a regular discussion about whether and how we want to work on
>> | GHC 2020 sounds fine, that will also give the community a place to
>> | weigh in. I do think the eventual contents should be informed by the
>> | community though, it shouldn’t just be us working alone.
>> | >
>> | > Sent from my iPhone
>> | >
>> | >> On Sep 2, 2020, at 03:16, Joachim Breitner <mail at joachim-
>> | breitner.de
>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreitner.de%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cf5ac3d83a2294463146608d864875f01%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637369880634568657&sdata=GGl8%2FgEX%2FUMSS1IAp5x11aht%2F%2B6xQY8%2Fqa37aySDtPc%3D&reserved=0>>
>> wrote:
>> | >>
>> | >> Hi,
>> | >>
>> | >> sounds plausible. It would also allow us to use tags to easily
>> | indicate
>> | >> the status (e.g. clearly-not, definitely-yes, kinda-contested…), and
>> | >> then filter by issue to get the current list…
>> | >>
>> | >> But before we go there, shouldn’t we maybe have a discussion first
>> | on
>> | >>
>> | >> * do we even want that?
>> | >> * what are the abstract criteria (or guidelines)?
>> | >> * what is the process?
>> | >>
>> | >> I believe that discussion could be done like any other proposal.
>> | >>
>> | >>
>> | >> As for the process; when I brought up the idea, I was worried about
>> | us
>> | >> spending huge resources discussion individual extensions to death,
>> | and
>> | >> proposed, in the interest of efficiency and getting things done:
>> | >>
>> | >>> The process could be: Every member can nominate any number of
>> | >>> extensions, to include, maybe a small rationale and then we do one
>> | >>> round of independent approval voting, requiring a supermajority to
>> | >>> really only pick uncontested extensions.
>> | >>
>> | >> So instead of long debates, we start with GHC2020 being just those
>> | >> extensions that a supermajority on the committee considers to be ok.
>> | >>
>> | >> This is much more lightweight process that we could get done in a
>> | week
>> | >> or two (maybe using a doodle-like voting page). Maybe we would leave
>> | >> out one or two extension that initially people are reserved about,
>> | but
>> | >> could be swayed after lengthy discussions. But is that worth the
>> | >> lengthy discussion?
>> | >>
>> | >> cheers,
>> | >> Joachim
>> | >>
>> | >> --
>> | >> Joachim Breitner
>> | >> mail at joachim-breitner.de
>> | >>
>> |
>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jo
>> | achim-
>> | breitner.de
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