[ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
Alejandro Serrano Mena
trupill at gmail.com
Wed Sep 9 10:16:44 UTC 2020
I would rather make the process Committee-driven, because otherwise it may
derail into too many micro-discussions. I think it's better to start a
conversation saying "this is our proposal, here are our criteria, here are
the exceptions we want to make", and then discuss from there.
Regards,
Alejandro
El mar., 8 sept. 2020 a las 14:01, Eric Seidel (<eric at seidel.io>) escribió:
> I think we may want to have the Committee initiate and drive the process.
> I think a GHC20XX proposal will turn into a bunch of micro proposals and
> discussions about individual (groups of) extensions, and it will be hard to
> track all of the threads of discussion in a single GitHub thread. We’ve
> dealt with long and contentious discussions before, but they were much more
> focused than GHC20XX will be, by design.
>
> I suggested earlier that an alternative strategy could be to open a new
> repo where the community can collaborate on GHC20XX via a familiar PR-based
> process, with each proposed group of extensions getting its own PR and
> discussion. There are a few open questions here though. When/how do we
> decide that it’s time for a new standard? How do we decide when the full
> proposal is ready for review? Do we need to review and sign off on each
> group of extensions separately or only the final product?
>
> This process would be a lot more work for us, so I’m happy to try the
> usual process first, and I’ll be happy to be proved wrong. But we should be
> prepared to step in and add some more structure if needed.
>
> Regardless, the first step should be to update our docs to express
> interest in GHC20XX proposals, establish criteria for including language
> extensions, and outline a process for submitting them.
>
> Eric
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 8, 2020, at 06:37, Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Personally I don’t think we should make the Steering Committee responsible
> for initiating or driving this. We should
>
> - establish the criteria (including some idea of how frequently we’d
> be open to creating a new GHCxx version),
> - express open-ness to a proposal, and then
> - review proposals when/if they materialise.
>
>
>
> It’d be fine for Alejandro, as an individual, to be a proposer. But that’s
> different from making the committee *responsible*.
>
>
>
> What do others think?
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> *From:* Alejandro Serrano Mena <trupill at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 08 September 2020 09:13
> *To:* Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Richard Eisenberg <rae at richarde.dev>; Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io>;
> ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
> *Subject:* Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> I would really like to move this forward, and I would be happy to put some
> work on it.
>
>
>
> What do you think of the following plan?
>
> - Create a ghc-proposal based on the (awesome) wiki page by Richard. I
> think the criteria in the wiki are quite nice. Explain that one of the
> goals is to encompass as many stable extensions as possible.
>
> - Reformat the list to make 3 tables: one for extensions which satisfy all
> 5 criteria, one for extensions we want to include even if they don't, and
> one for those which should be rejected in the light of those criteria.
>
>
>
> If the process works well, we could think about instaurating a
> yearly/bi-yearly/n-yearly process to create new -XGHC20XX versions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Alejandro
>
>
>
> El lun., 7 sept. 2020 a las 17:32, Simon Peyton Jones via
> ghc-steering-committee (<ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org>) escribió:
>
> Just back from holiday. Some thoughts
>
> * I don’t think this mailing list is the best place for the
> discussion. Basically, it's a GHC Proposal, so someone (possibly
> a committee member, possibly not) should write a proposal,
> and we should put it through the process.
>
> * We should advertise the criteria, as Richard has done on the
> wiki page.
>
> * Any such proposal should be informed by data. Notably, extension usage
> in Hackage, or perhaps Stackage (since it's a bit more curated).
>
> * A proposer might also want to run a public poll, as an additional
> source of data
>
> * When it comes to the committee, we can (I guess) vote on individual
> extensions, rather than just accept/reject the whole thing.
>
> I am intrigued by the idea of using Kialo to coordinate discussion.
> Maybe it'd work better than GitHub? Are there other alternatives?
> But that's orthogonal to the GHC 2020 idea; let's not conflate them.
>
> Simon
>
> | -----Original Message-----
> | From: ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee-
> | bounces at haskell.org> On Behalf Of Richard Eisenberg
> | Sent: 02 September 2020 14:57
> | To: Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io>
> | Cc: ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
> | Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020
> |
> | It seems clear that my wiki idea isn't winning the day -- I never
> | really liked it either. I'd be fine with either Eric's or Joachim's
> | approaches. Maybe start with Joachim's approach and then use Eric's
> | when Joachim's runs out of steam? A big minus, though, to Joachim's
> | approach is that it seems hard to get good community involvement.
> |
> | Richard
> |
> | > On Sep 2, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Eric Seidel <eric at seidel.io> wrote:
> | >
> | > Opening a regular discussion about whether and how we want to work on
> | GHC 2020 sounds fine, that will also give the community a place to
> | weigh in. I do think the eventual contents should be informed by the
> | community though, it shouldn’t just be us working alone.
> | >
> | > Sent from my iPhone
> | >
> | >> On Sep 2, 2020, at 03:16, Joachim Breitner <mail at joachim-
> | breitner.de
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreitner.de%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cfaa7b2a148fd4381512c08d853cf0a81%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637351495986435664&sdata=Vfd5PeSlx%2FqLuT96wFjzBj0%2FVPgXrNqH%2FMgSj8g2QiM%3D&reserved=0>>
> wrote:
> | >>
> | >> Hi,
> | >>
> | >> sounds plausible. It would also allow us to use tags to easily
> | indicate
> | >> the status (e.g. clearly-not, definitely-yes, kinda-contested…), and
> | >> then filter by issue to get the current list…
> | >>
> | >> But before we go there, shouldn’t we maybe have a discussion first
> | on
> | >>
> | >> * do we even want that?
> | >> * what are the abstract criteria (or guidelines)?
> | >> * what is the process?
> | >>
> | >> I believe that discussion could be done like any other proposal.
> | >>
> | >>
> | >> As for the process; when I brought up the idea, I was worried about
> | us
> | >> spending huge resources discussion individual extensions to death,
> | and
> | >> proposed, in the interest of efficiency and getting things done:
> | >>
> | >>> The process could be: Every member can nominate any number of
> | >>> extensions, to include, maybe a small rationale and then we do one
> | >>> round of independent approval voting, requiring a supermajority to
> | >>> really only pick uncontested extensions.
> | >>
> | >> So instead of long debates, we start with GHC2020 being just those
> | >> extensions that a supermajority on the committee considers to be ok.
> | >>
> | >> This is much more lightweight process that we could get done in a
> | week
> | >> or two (maybe using a doodle-like voting page). Maybe we would leave
> | >> out one or two extension that initially people are reserved about,
> | but
> | >> could be swayed after lengthy discussions. But is that worth the
> | >> lengthy discussion?
> | >>
> | >> cheers,
> | >> Joachim
> | >>
> | >> --
> | >> Joachim Breitner
> | >> mail at joachim-breitner.de
> | >>
> | https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jo
> | achim-
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> | >>
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