[Haskell-beginners] happstack versus yesod

[Ramy Abdel-Azim]

well, thanks for your opinions anyway, Michael.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Michael Snoyman <michael at snoyman.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure where you got that implication from. Happstack is a good
> framework, and using it will definitely help you learn Haskell. But the same
> is true of Yesod or Snap. I guess you might say that if your goal is to
> learn Haskell, and not to create websites, then you shouldn't be using a
> framework at all, and should be writing code that reads/sends ByteStrings
> over sockets. You'll definitely learn more Haskell that way...
>
> Michael
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:50 PM, Ramy Abdel-Azim <ramy.abdelazim at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> well, i'll add my $.02 here (hopefully without throwing fuel on the fire)
>> and say that - without knowing much about either, I asked the question for
>> pete's sake! - is that from what you're saying, if I'dlike to use one of
>> these frameworks to not only build my website but to also solidify what
>> knowledge of haskell i've acquired, I should go with Happstack.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Michael Snoyman <michael at snoyman.com>wrote:
>>
>>> This probably isn't the right forum for expressing this thought, but here
>>> goes anyway:
>>>
>>> What exactly is the freedom that Yesod takes away from you? I know this
>>> idea gets passed around a lot: Yesod isn't "really" Haskell, Yesod is its
>>> own language, etc. But all of that is really just talking about some sugar
>>> that Yesod puts in place for you: under the surface, it's just functions,
>>> data types and type classes. You can go ahead and write a complete Yesod
>>> application without using Template Haskell of QuasiQuotation.
>>>
>>> So what's the restriction that Yesod has that Happstack/Snap don't? Yesod
>>> requires you to provide some datatypes. That's it. What's the purpose of the
>>> datatypes? Mostly, it's about type-safe URLs. I'm not exactly sure why the
>>> term "restriction" or "freedom" even applies here: Yesod has a *feature*
>>> that Happstack/Snap do not include out of the box.
>>>
>>> Let me phrase this in a different way: "But I don't like Haskell, because
>>> the idea of Python in more interesting for me. Python gives you some
>>> freedom." I really do see this as the same argument. You can go ahead and
>>> right some code without static type checking in Python, and you might even
>>> write it faster than you would have in Haskell. But go ahead and start
>>> making changes, and unless you have some very good unit tests, you're in for
>>> a world of hurt. In Haskell, often times the compiler will save you from
>>> yourself.
>>>
>>> The same is true in Yesod. I've refactored incredibly large codebases,
>>> with hundreds of different resource patterns, and *never* had to worry about
>>> 404s. Maybe some people consider that giving up freedom. I consider it
>>> giving up the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot.
>>>
>>> Oh, and if you are absolutely dependent on the idea of getting rid of
>>> this data-type requirements, and want all the freedom of dynamic routes, you
>>> can try out a 44 line module[1] that I mentioned recently[2].
>>>
>>> OK, enough of this rant. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just tired of
>>> this notion that Yesod is a ball-and-chain around your ankles. People can
>>> have legitimate reasons to prefer Happstack or Snap to Yesod, I've never
>>> claimed that it was a perfect framework for everyone. I just don't think
>>> this is one of those legitimate reasons.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> [1] https://gist.github.com/884802
>>> <https://gist.github.com/884802>[2]
>>> http://osdir.com/ml/general/2011-04/msg02160.html
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Alexey G <kreed131 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello. It's very interesting theme for me and I want to express my
>>>> opinion.
>>>> Yesod - very fast web-framework(
>>>> http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/preliminary-warp-cross-language-benchmarks
>>>> ).
>>>> But I don't like Yesod, because idea of Happstack more interesting for
>>>> me. Happstack gives to you some freedom.
>>>>
>>>> I trying to use Snap Framework now. And it's very good for me. Try it
>>>> http://snapframework.com/!
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for my english.
>>>>
>>>> 2011/4/5 Ramy Abdel-Azim <ramy.abdelazim at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> I already posted about this a little bit but i think i should let the
>>>>> old thread get back to it's regularly scheduled conversaion. on to my
>>>>> question:
>>>>>
>>>>> So I know there are a million easier ways to createa  blog (wordpress,
>>>>> django, drupal, etc. etc.) but which would you recommend I use to build a
>>>>> beginner website that is simliar to a blog: happstack or yesod?
>>>>> _Ramy
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>
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