[Haskell-community] Civility notes (was "Traversable instances for (, , ) a b")

Wed Apr 5 15:41:28 UTC 2017

agreed with Tikhon's points, they say it way better than I could

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Tikhon Jelvis <tikhon at jelv.is> wrote:

> Personally, I would not be against a *short and simple* code of conduct
> that specifically addresses issues we have seen. I'm imagining clear
> guidelines that help people express themselves in a thoughtful and polite
> way. Something in the style of the Hacker News commenting guidelines[1] (at
> least the first four; the rest are specific to HN/Reddit-like sites).
>
> One of the best examples I've seen in the wild had a single rule: no
> personal attacks. It's simple to understand and follow with no risk of
> stifling or derailing real discussions, and yet unambiguously rules out the
> majority of rude comments I see online (ignoring spam and outright
> trolling).
>
> I do *not* like Rust's code of conduct specifically. It does not provide
> clear guidelines on civility/politeness and covers too many other things,
> including a lot of (often political) baggage. Why is the idea that
> "everything is a tradeoff" enshrined as a rule? The rule on politeness is
> clearly deemphasized: "Please be kind and courteous. There’s no need to be
> mean or rude." is so vague it may as well not be in the code of conduct. We
> should *assume* people set out to be kind and courteous and help them do
> that consistently. The "Citizen Code of Conduct" they link to has even more
> baggage and I believe it should *not* serve as the basis for anything we
> might adopt as a community.
>
> [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html see section "In
> Comments"
>
> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Simon Peyton Jones via Haskell-community <
> haskell-community at haskell.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends
>>
>>
>>
>> I second what Tom says below.
>>
>>
>>
>> Almost everyone expresses their views with respect, even when
>> disagreeing.  The exceptions are (in my guess) mostly unintentional, at
>> least in the extent of the offence caused.   That does not make them
>> unimportant, because a slow slippage in our collective standards is, over
>> time corrosive.  But it does mean that we can draw breath, as Tom has
>> helpfully done here, and without condemning anyone reset our standards.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’ve been talking to a couple of people about whether it would be useful
>> to have an explicit Haskell Community Code of Conduct.  Many online
>> communities have one (e.g. Rust
>> <https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html>), and it might be helpful
>> for everyone to have a concrete baseline rather than an unwritten
>> standard.  Any views on that?
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Libraries [mailto:libraries-bounces at haskell.org] *On Behalf Of *Tom
>> Murphy
>> *Sent:* 02 April 2017 19:18
>> *To:* Fumiaki Kinoshita <fumiexcel at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* libraries <libraries at haskell.org>
>> *Subject:* Civility notes (was "Traversable instances for (,,) a b")
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Fumiaki!
>>
>>      I agree with you that some poorly-chosen words by a few people have
>> soured this conversation, but please don't let that turn you completely off
>> of the productive conversation most of us are attempting to have! I think
>> it's largely been successful, too: even if many of us haven't changed our
>> -1/+1 votes, I for one have had my ideas challenged and have a more nuanced
>> view than before talking with everyone here.
>>
>>      Henning and Edward are two examples (one from each side of the +1/-1
>> chasm) who have been aided by this discussion, in making important progress
>> to finding a middle ground (each in the form of proposed compiler changes).
>>
>>      To the rest of us: Fumiaki regretting having posted here is a pretty
>> stark example of why speaking politely matters. People being scared away
>> and feeling unwelcome is a real phenomenon, and we need to do our part to
>> fix it. I'd propose:
>>
>>      - If you haven't read it already, SPJ recently wrote a heartfelt
>> letter on the subject [0]. We've gotten better since then, but clearly
>> we're not finished.
>>
>>      - Civility is a norm, and norms sometimes need to be enforced. From
>> a distance, we all look bad (and unwelcoming!) if anyone is hostile and we
>> don't make it clear it's not acceptable. Speak up! That said, everyone
>> makes mistakes - try to give people space to apologize and move on.
>>
>>      - If someone says something insulting to you, please take that as a
>> sign to become more polite, not less so. The downward spiral is real.
>>
>>
>>
>>      If you're called out for saying something regrettable (again,
>> regardless of if you're +1 or -1 on this issue), *please* take our desire
>> for civil conversation seriously. Responses like (I'm paraphrasing, and not
>> trying to cite anyone specifically): "It was a joke (mostly)" and "It's
>> your fault if you didn't get the joke" are worse than not writing anything
>> at all. Ideal would be a quick "Sorry!"
>>
>> Thanks, all!
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> [0] https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2016-September/024995.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Fumiaki Kinoshita <fumiexcel at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The discussion has diverged to flaming due to a few offensive people. I
>> guess I shouldn't have posted a proposal here, I should have submitted a
>> patch instead.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017-03-23 19:53 GMT+09:00 Fumiaki Kinoshita <fumiexcel at gmail.com>:
>>
>> It's surprising that they are missing (forgive me, I'm not here to make
>> people grumpy).
>>
>>
>>
>>
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