qualified imports, PVP and so on (Was: add new Data.Bits.Bits(bitZero) method)

Carter Schonwald carter.schonwald at gmail.com
Fri Feb 28 03:47:37 UTC 2014

cool! :)

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:17 PM, Greg Weber <greg at gregweber.info> wrote:

> That was the plan. I spend a large amount of company time contributing
> back to open source. Originally I was going to spend some of it on helping
> implement cabal freeze, but I left it in the hands of others that were more
> capable and I haven't checked back in a long time.
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Carter Schonwald <
> carter.schonwald at gmail.com> wrote:
>> cool, so is docmunch going to allocate some money or manpower to help
>> out? :)
>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Greg Weber <greg at gregweber.info> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Austin Seipp <austin at well-typed.com>wrote:
>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Greg Weber <greg at gregweber.info>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > I actually think work on the a) cabal solver has been a distraction
>>>> from
>>>> > more pressing issues: the need for sandboxes (that is done now) and
>>>> > reproducible builds (frozen dependencies). If you look at Ruby's
>>>> Bundler,
>>>> > which has been extremely successful, it has historically (maybe they
>>>> have a
>>>> > better solver now) been a dumb tool in terms of its solver that works
>>>> > extremely well. I think 90+% of this conversation is pretty wasteful,
>>>> > because once we have reproducible builds everything is going to
>>>> change. If
>>>> > the energy could be re-directed to being able to create reproducible
>>>> builds
>>>> > in Haskell, then we could figure out what the next most important
>>>> priority
>>>> > is.
>>>> I'd like to carefully point out however, that it is not a zero-sum
>>>> game - work dedicated to improving the constraint solver is not work
>>>> which is implicitly taken away any other set of tools - like a
>>>> 'freeze' command. There is no 'distraction' IMO - it is a set of
>>>> individuals (or companies, even) each with their own priorities. I
>>>> think this is the sign of a healthy community, actually - one that
>>>> places importance on its tools and seeks to find optimal ways to
>>>> improve them in a variety of ways. A freeze command and an improved
>>>> solver are both excellent (and worthy) improvements.
>>> I agree that it is not zero sum, but I do think that at some point the
>>> wrong priorities must have been chosen since I have to go to special effort
>>> to produce a consistent build. Also this is all getting mixed up with a lot
>>> of talk about PVP and other things whose relevance changes if the
>>> underlying installation machinery supports what every application developer
>>> should be doing.
>>>> In reality, bundler works precisely for the reason you said it did: it
>>>> avoids all the actually difficult problems. But that comes at a cost,
>>>> because Bundler for example can't actually tell me when things *are*
>>>> going to break. If I bump my dependencies, create a new Gemfile lock,
>>>> and test - it could all simply explode later on at runtime, even if it
>>>> could have been concluded from the constraints that it was all invalid
>>>> in the first place. The only thing bundler buys me is that this
>>>> explosion won't potentially extend to the rest of my global
>>>> environment when it happens. Which is a good thing, truth be told, and
>>>> why it is so popular - otherwise this happens constantly.
>>> This wasn't my experience using bundler. Bundler supports conservative
>>> upgrades that create consistent packages. So if you want to upgrade
>>> something you place a range on it and ask Bundler to upgrade it. I don't
>>> doubt though that it may let you manually subvert the system.
>>>> These two concerns are, as far as I can see, in no way opposed in
>>>> spirit or practice, and suggesting one is essentially wasted effort
>>>> that distracts people - when I see no evidence of that - strikes me as
>>>> odd.
>>> I think the industrial Haskell group supported work on a better solver,
>>> which was definitely helpful, but I just think it would have been wiser to
>>> support work on consistent builds first. I agree that they can be worked on
>>> independently.
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