[Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

[Benjamin L. Russell]

So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses.

In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react.  Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea.

In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.  Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.

Please post your responses initially in this thread.  After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell at haskell.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM
> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on
> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and
> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called
> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing
> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the
> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but
> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts
> education, on a par with Scheme.  When I suggested the idea
> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org
> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this
> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here
> to ask for feedback.
> 
> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would
> be as follows:
> 
> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the
> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in
> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to
> in research.
> 
> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students
> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for
> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal
> arts education, as opposed to an
> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
> 
> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists:
> 
> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for
> announcements and for non-beginner discussions
> 
> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for
> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious
> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of
> the language Haskell.
> 
> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for
> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts
> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly
> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have
> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not
> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have
> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not
> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting
> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and
> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the
> mailing list.
> 
> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a
> private e-mail message from another poster asking the
> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing
> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow
> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points
> randomly from a square in approximating pi.  Avoiding this
> question required the knowledge that screen resolution
> could be considered independently from the precision of the
> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to
> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar
> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and
> received the above-mentioned response.)
> 
> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue
> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum,
> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from
> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics
> background.  The primary audience of this new mailing list
> would be educators and students in a liberal arts
> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for
> studying functional programming.  Currently, the language
> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is
> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has
> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming
> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell
> may either not have a computer science background, or may
> not have a sophisticated mathematical background.  Posts
> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers,
> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find
> valuable information to aid their research, but may be
> welcome
>  in a more education-focused context.
> 
> It would seem that creating a new mailing list,
> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching
> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding
> questions from students in that context, would help
> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread
> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in
> industry.  Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could
> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and
> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background
> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators
> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected
> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science
> background.
> 
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
> 
> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow
> <marlowsd at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
> list
> > To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
> <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: "John Peterson"
> <jpeterson at western.edu>
> > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
> > Hi Benjamin,
> > 
> > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list
> has
> > a narrow 
> > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche.  In this
> case
> > you're 
> > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it
> > needs discussion 
> > amongst the community before we create the list, so
> that we
> > can keep a 
> > consistent strategy.
> > 
> > That's not to say that I disagree with your
> proposal. 
> > But it doesn't 
> > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and
> why
> > haskell-cafe 
> > shouldn't serve the purpose.  One thing that
> isn't
> > clear is whether the 
> > list you're proposing is for people interested in
> > *teaching* Haskell (in 
> > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or
> people
> > *learning* Haskell (in 
> > which case I'd consider carefully whether
> haskell-cafe
> > shoudn't be 
> > serving that need).  That's something you need to
> > clarify when proposing 
> > this list to the community.
> > 
> > So I suggest you send this proposal out to
> > haskell at haskell.org in the 
> > first instance, and see what response you get. 
> Discussion
> > should move 
> > to haskell-cafe quickly.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 	Simon
> > 
> > Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
> > > Greetings,
> > > 
> > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
> > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new
> > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to
> > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the
> > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
> > > 
> > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
> interested in
> > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan
> to call
> > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research
> > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
> > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to
> > non-computer science major students.
> > > 
> > > This topic is not covered by any of the other
> mailing
> > lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and
> Haskell-Cafe
> > for the past six months or so, but the former is
> devoted to
> > announcements, and the latter de facto to research
> matters.
> >  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
> academic
> > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an
> > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science
> majors
> > interested in learning Haskell.
> > > 
> > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request
> you to
> > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you
> please
> > set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
> > > 
> > > Name of Mailing List:  Haskell-Edu
> > > E-mail Address:        haskell-edu at haskell.org
> > > Description:           The Haskell-Edu Mailing
> List: 
> > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in
> > Education
> > > 
> > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do
> to
> > start this mailing list?  Should I host it on
> haskell.org,
> > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
> mailing
> > list service?  Also, how should I have it listed in
> the
> > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
> > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
> > benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
> > > 
> > > Thank you very much for your time and
> cooperation.
> > > 
> > > Sincerely yours,
> > > 
> > > Benjamin L. Russell
> > > 
> > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
> > <jpeterson at western.edu> wrote:
> > > 
> > >> From: John Peterson
> <jpeterson at western.edu>
> > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new
> Haskell-related
> > mailing list
> > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
> > <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
> > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
> > >> Hi Benjamin,
> > >>
> > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing
> > list.  Simon
> > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if
> you
> > drop him
> > >> and email he'll do the setup for
> Haskell.org. 
> > Once the
> > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and
> add it
> > to the
> > >> appropriate pages.
> > >>
> > >> We've had a bunch of these special
> interest
> > lists and
> > >> most of them go dead after a few months but
> you
> > never know
> > >> ...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>    John
> > > 
> > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
> > <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell
> > <dekudekuplex at yahoo.com>
> > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related
> mailing
> > list
> > >> To: "John Peterson"
> > <jpeterson at western.edu>
> > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM
> > >> Greetings,
> > >>
> > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
> > interested in
> > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which
> I
> > plan to
> > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
> > non-research
> > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by
> the
> > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more
> accessible
> > to
> > >> non-computer science major students.  (This
> > message is
> > >> being addressed to you because I had already
> sent
> > the
> > >> portion below twice to other administrators
> at
> > Haskell.org,
> > >> first to mailman-owner at haskell.org, and then
> to
> > >> simonmarhaskell at gmail.com, but had not
> received a
> > response
> > >> on either occasion.)
> > >>
> > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other
> > mailing
> > >> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell
> and
> > Haskell-Cafe
> > >> for the past six months or so, but the former
> is
> > devoted to
> > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to
> research
> > matters.
> > >>  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is
> overly
> > academic
> > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this
> > creates an
> > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer
> > science majors
> > >> interested in learning Haskell.
> > >>
> > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to
> do to
> > start
> > >> this mailing list?  Should I host it on
> > haskell.org, or
> > >> just start it by myself using a
> non-Haskell.org
> > mailing
> > >> list service?  Also, how should I have it
> listed
> > in the
> > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
> > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo)
> page for
> > the
> > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell
> community?
> > >>
> > >> Thank you very much for your time and
> cooperation.
> > >>
> > >> Sincerely yours,
> > >>
> > >> Benjamin L. Russell
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