Haskell for non-Haskell's sake

[C.Reinke]

[this seemed to be flowing along nicely, but now that the thread 
 has moved from information to organisation and meta-discussion, 
 I'd like to add a few comments, and an invitation]

> > On Saturday 30 August 2003 01:39, Hal Daume III wrote:
> > > I'm attempting to get a sense of the topology of the Haskell
> > > community.  Based on the Haskell Communities & Activities reports, it
> > > seems that the large majority of people use Haskell for Haskell's sake.
> > 
> > This bias seems to exist not only in the Communities & Activities reports, but 

The bias is entirely in what readers of this mailing list are
contributing to these reports. The editor has certainly been more
than willing to include "other" applications of Haskell. I know
there are lots of other interesting things going on out there, but
have so far not been able to reach these people:

  - some of them read/attend none of the Haskell list, c.l.f, or
    Haskell Workshop, so they simply never hear about these report
    *unless _you_ forward the invitations to participate*

  - some read the reports and the calls for contributions, but don't
    think of their work as particularly interesting to a wider
    community, or as not substantial enough

So, I do hope that those who've answered Hal's call (or have been
thinking about answering) *will* contribute to the next edition of
the Haskell Communities & Activities Report! I'll be expecting your 
email in my mailbox in the last 2 weeks of October :-)

> > also in the Haskell mailing lists and in the Haskell-related
> > events, such as the Haskell Workshop. 

I'm not sure about this list, but as for the Haskell workshop, this
year we had (http://www.cs.uu.nl/~johanj/HaskellWorkshop/cfp03.html):

  - 4 presentations on applications of Haskell, to gaming, quantum
    mechanics, quantum computing, web site development
  - 8 presentations on programming techniques, tools, debugging, and
    libraries
  - 3 presentations on language design issues (strict language,
    records, lack of principal types)

How does this relate to the bias you see?

> > However, the reactions to your inquiry about use of Haskell for
> > non-Haskell purposes suggests that a significant group of
> > language _users_ does actually exist, though their voice is not
> > heard too often.

Indeed. So, please let yourself be heard!-) Or if you know of
someone else who does interesting Haskell stuff, ask them to talk
about their work. It is the collection of all these small fragments
that makes the HC&A Reports useful!

> When making your contribution is spending 10 minutes writing an
> e-mail (such as this one) there's no problem making your voice
> heard, and it's nice think you're being an active member of a very
> nice and helpful community.

Just the way the HC&A Reports are intended to work (if the 10 minute
email lacks any information, the editor will get back to you).

As for Haskell Applications events: IMHO, Haskell has grown beyond
that (is an application more interesting for the sake of being
implemented in Haskell?). The point of applications is not the
language, and some of us have already presented Haskell applications
at domain-specific events, which is the way to go. 

Where there is interaction between the application and the language
(tools missing, features inadequate) or where applications are
facilitates by language and tool developments, the Haskell workshop
and IFL are good places to present and discuss that work.

Potential benefits of a Haskell applications event would be for

  - advertizing: having several application presentations in 
    a single venue
  - contacts: getting to meet other Haskell "applicators" 

The main problem: "real" Haskell developers are reluctant to talk
about their work (and sometimes business interests are in the way).

The comparison to JaffaOne is misleading, methinks: are there enough
professional Haskell developers who can afford to/have to attend
such an event with the goal of keeping up-to-date with their main
tool? And would there be enough presenters to make such a visit
worthwhile for the professional participants? Perhaps an add-on to
the Advanced Functional Programming Summerschools might work?

I guess I'd prefer a Haskell quarterly "magazine", with editing, but
emphasizing use over academic criteria when evaluating submissions.

Cheers,
Claus

--
http://www.haskell.org/communities/