Haskell Implemetors Meeting

Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:04:05 -0800

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Gentle Haskellers,

A few weeks ago (following POPL) there was an informal meeting of some
people involved in implementing Haskell. In this message I summarise
some of the things we discussed, because I think many of them will be of
general interest.

People with actions are in CAPITALS.  Key:
        MANUEL          Manuel Chakravarty
        SIGBJORN        Sigbjorn Finne
        JOHN            John Launchbury
        ANDREW          Andrew Tolmach
        MALCOLM         Malcolm Wallace
        HENRIK          Henrik Nilsson
        OLAF            Olaf Chitil    
        SIMON M         Simon Marlow
        SIMON PJ        Simon Peyton Jones

Simon

=================================================================

Haskell Report
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SIMON PJ still hasn't put out the revised H98 report.  Jump to it!

Foreign Function Interface
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Going splendidly, but needs writing up as a proper "Blessed Addendum"
to the H98 report, so that compilers can say "I implement H98 plus
FFI".

MANUEL agreed to be Editor for the Addendum, and drive the process.

H/Direct and Green Card: SIGBJORN is going to work at Galois, and
will continue to look after and develop these tools. Indeed, he's
already started hacking on them again.  Hooray!

Haskell implementation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hugs:   OGI in maintenance mode.  There's a danger that Hugs will
        gradually die, which none of us want.  One idea: advertise
        openly for a home for Hugs.  JOHN will take this
        suggestion to OGI.

nhc:    Being actively maintained and developed at York

GHC:    4.08.2 release imminent
        Simon M and Julian gave a demo of the upcoming
        interactive GHCi demo; release expected in a
        month or two.

        We agreed that it would be a Jolly Good Thing if GHC could
        be persuaded to produce GHC-independent Core output,
        ready to feed into some other compiler.  For example,
        Karl-Filip might be able to use it. 
        ANDREW will write a specification, and implement it.

        MANUEL is writing an inside-the-monster roadmap.  He'll
        put it in fptools/ghc somewhere, so others can add to it.

Haskell Libraries
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MALCOLM produced a proposal for a (tiny) language extension that
would give us a hierarchical name space for modules (a la Java). 
We loved it.  He will refine it into a concrete document to
circulate more widely.

We agreed (again) about the importance of libraries.  The "hslibs"
libraries are a good start.  They are *not* part of GHC, even though
they happen to live in the same CVS repository.  We agreed they
should stay there, but should have a less GHC-specific build/test
system.

We appointed a troika of Library Supremos, namely

        MALCOLM, SIMON M, ANDY

Specific tasks:
        - get closure on Malcolm's module-naming proposal
        - agree hslibs hierarchy
        - define documentation standards
        - act as gatekeepers for contributions

SIMON M will create a mailing list for library discussions.

Graphical user interfaces
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We got a useful taxomomy:

--------------------------------------------------------
High-level      Fran/Tk         Fudgets    (Haggis)

--------------------------------------------------------
Medium-level    Clean Object I/O        School of
abstractions    [GUI]                   Expression (SOE)
                                        [Graphics]

--------------------------------------------------------
Low-level
veneers         HOpenGL     Gtk  Haskell/Tk   Win32   X
on existing     [Graphics]
libraries
--------------------------------------------------------

Low-level veneers are going well -- but they are
low level.  High-level abstractions are pretty experimental.

We need a medium-level GUI library.  Peter Achten's port
of the Clean Object I/O system looks like a great candidate.
Well documented, lots of experience in use, about the right
level.

SIMON PJ to seek agreement from Nijmegen, and then advertise
for someone to complete the port.

OLAF will articulate the above taxonomy on haskell.org

HaskellDoc
~~~~~~~~~~
We all loved Armin Groesslinger's HDoc tool.  HENRIK will get in
touch with him to invite him to collaborate on a standard tool
we can all use.  (Of course, it's up to him.)

Two specific ideas:
   Take a Haskell source file into some XML-stuff,
   which can then be rendered in various ways. 
   (Rather than going straight to HTML.)

   Use standard pragma syntax: {-# DOC ... #-}

[Post meeting note: mailing list at
          <http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskelldoc>
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskelldoc
]

Debugging
~~~~~~~~~
Hat (York): Expect a release in the Spring.
            In the summer they hope for a first cut at at
            an implementation-portable version

Hood:       ANDY plans to release his graphical version

IDE
~~~
Galois are interested in working on Haskell-in-Visual-Studio.

Haskell.org
~~~~~~~~~~~
Idea: have a "job adverts" page on haskell.org, for tasks
that need doing.  For example:

        * Integrate Haskell with "Source Navigator"
        * Offer libraries
        * Complete Clean I/O port
        * Contribute nofib programs
        * Contribute validation programs

Action OLAF. 

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Gentle Haskellers, A few weeks 
ago (following POPL) there was an informal meeting of some people involved in 
implementing Haskell.&nbsp;In this message I summarise some of the things we 
discussed, because I think many of them will be of general interest. People with actions are in CAPITALS.&nbsp; 
Key: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MANUEL&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Manuel 
Chakravarty &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
SIGBJORN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sigbjorn 
Finne &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; JOHN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; John 
Launchbury &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ANDREW&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Andrew 
Tolmach &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MALCOLM 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Malcolm 
Wallace &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HENRIK&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Henrik 
Nilsson &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; OLAF&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Olaf 
Chitil&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
SIMON M &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Simon 
Marlow &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SIMON 
PJ&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Simon Peyton 
Jones Simon ================================================================= Haskell 
Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SIMON PJ still hasn't put out the revised H98 
report.&nbsp; Jump to it! Foreign Function 
Interface ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Going splendidly, but needs writing 
up as a proper "Blessed Addendum" to the H98 report, so that compilers can 
say "I implement H98 plus FFI". MANUEL agreed to be Editor for the 
Addendum, and drive the process. H/Direct and Green Card: SIGBJORN is 
going to work at Galois, and will continue to look after and develop these 
tools. Indeed, he's already started hacking on them again.&nbsp; 
Hooray! Haskell 
implementation ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hugs:&nbsp;&nbsp; OGI in maintenance 
mode.&nbsp; There's a danger that Hugs 
will &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; gradually die, which none of 
us want.&nbsp; One idea: advertise &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
openly for a home for Hugs.&nbsp; JOHN will take 
this &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; suggestion to 
OGI. nhc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Being actively maintained and developed at 
York GHC:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.08.2 release 
imminent &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Simon M and Julian gave a 
demo of the upcoming &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; interactive 
GHCi demo; release expected in a &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
month or two. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We agreed that 
it would be a Jolly Good Thing if GHC 
could &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be persuaded to produce 
GHC-independent Core output, &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ready 
to feed into some other compiler.&nbsp; For 
example, &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Karl-Filip might be able 
to use it.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ANDREW will write 
a specification, and implement 
it. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MANUEL is writing an 
inside-the-monster roadmap.&nbsp; 
He'll &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; put it in fptools/ghc 
somewhere, so others can add to it. Haskell 
Libraries ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MALCOLM produced a proposal for a (tiny) 
language extension that would give us a hierarchical name space for modules 
(a la Java).&nbsp; We loved it.&nbsp; He will refine it into a concrete 
document to circulate more widely. We agreed (again) about the 
importance of libraries.&nbsp; The "hslibs" libraries are a good start.&nbsp; 
They are *not* part of GHC, even though they happen to live in the same CVS 
repository.&nbsp; We agreed they should stay there, but should have a less 
GHC-specific build/test system. We appointed a troika of Library 
Supremos, namely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MALCOLM, 
SIMON M, ANDY Specific 
tasks: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - get closure on Malcolm's 
module-naming proposal &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - agree 
hslibs hierarchy &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - define 
documentation standards &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - act as 
gatekeepers for contributions SIMON M will create a mailing list for 
library discussions. Graphical user 
interfaces ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We got a useful 
taxomomy: -------------------------------------------------------- High-level&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Fran/Tk &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Fudgets&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
(Haggis) -------------------------------------------------------- Medium-level 
&nbsp;&nbsp; Clean Object I/O&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; School 
of abstractions&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [GUI]&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Expression 
(SOE) &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
[Graphics] -------------------------------------------------------- Low-level veneers 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HOpenGL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Gtk&nbsp; Haskell/Tk&nbsp;&nbsp; Win32&nbsp;&nbsp; X on existing 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
[Graphics] libraries -------------------------------------------------------- Low-level 
veneers are going well -- but they are low level.&nbsp; High-level 
abstractions are pretty experimental. We need a medium-level GUI 
library.&nbsp; Peter Achten's port of the Clean Object I/O system looks like 
a great candidate. Well documented, lots of experience in use, about the 
right level. SIMON PJ to seek agreement from Nijmegen, and then 
advertise for someone to complete the port. OLAF will articulate the 
above taxonomy on haskell.org HaskellDoc ~~~~~~~~~~ We all 
loved Armin Groesslinger's HDoc tool.&nbsp; HENRIK will get in touch with him 
to invite him to collaborate on a standard tool we can all use.&nbsp; (Of 
course, it's up to him.) Two specific ideas: &nbsp;&nbsp; Take a 
Haskell source file into some XML-stuff, &nbsp;&nbsp; which can then be 
rendered in various ways.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (Rather than going straight to 
HTML.) &nbsp;&nbsp; Use standard pragma syntax: {-# DOC ... 
#-} [Post meeting note: mailing list 
at &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A 
href="http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskelldoc" target=_blank>http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskelldoc</A> ] Debugging ~~~~~~~~~ Hat (York): Expect a 
release in the Spring. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In the summer they hope for a first cut at 
at &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an 
implementation-portable version Hood:&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ANDY 
plans to release his graphical version IDE ~~~ Galois are 
interested in working on 
Haskell-in-Visual-Studio. Haskell.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ Idea: have a 
"job adverts" page on haskell.org, for tasks that need doing.&nbsp; For 
example: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Integrate Haskell 
with "Source Navigator" &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Offer 
libraries &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Complete Clean I/O 
port &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Contribute nofib 
programs &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; * Contribute validation 
programs Action OLAF. 
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