FFI, safe vs unsafe
john at repetae.net
Thu Mar 30 05:41:37 EST 2006
On Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 10:44:36AM +0100, Simon Marlow wrote:
> You're optimising for the single-threaded case, and that's fine. In
> GHC, a call-in is similar to what I outlined above except that we can
> optimise away the RPC and perform the call directly in the OS thread
> that requested it, due to the way bound threads are implemented. Doing
> that requires that a lot more of the runtime needs to be thread-safe,
yeah, if you actually have a OS threaded RTS, then everything is a whole
different ball of wax. But there is a lot to be said for a
state-threaded version like hugs. Even in C-land many people choose
state-threads over posix threads or vice versa depending on many
criteria and we shouldn't assume that one is necessarily superior.
state-threads arn't second class, just a different way to go.
Although I was skeptical at the beginning that we could come up with a
standard based on forkIO that could encompass both models without
compromising performance or implementation flexability, I now think that
we can! and that is good, because it means we won't need to make
concurrency an addendum or just accept the fact that many haskell-prime
implementations will be incomplete!
mainly, I think we need to keep a couple goals in mind, which are sometimes
in opposition, but not really so much:
* not require anything that will rule out or arbitrarily reduce the
efficiency of a absolutely-zero-overhead in the non-concurrent case
implementation of straightforward state-threads.
* not require anything that will inhibit the SMP scalability or
scheduling freedom of OS threaded implementations.
I think if we stick to these 'caps' at both ends then all the
intermediate implementations we have talked about will be accomodated
and since state-threads can _almost_ be implemented in pure haskell, we
can be pretty sure we arn't constraining future as yet to be thought of
implementation models too much.
A sticky point might be whether we say anything about duplicated work,
however, the haskell report never really says anything about guarenteed
sharing anyway so we can probably be silent on the matter.
we certainly shouldn't treat state-threads as second class or a "lesser"
implementation of the standard though! they can often be faster than OS
threads but with their own set of tradeoffs.
OS threaded - ghc -threaded, context switching at arbitrary points, not
necessarily under the control of the haskell runtime.
state-threading - hugs,jhc context switching at block-points chosen by the
implementation and user via yield.
yhc is somewhere in between. basically state-threading, but with more
context switching under the control of the yhc run-time.
> It's true that this is a fairly large overhead to impose on all Haskell
> implementations. I'm coming around to the idea that requiring this is
> too much, and perhaps multi-threaded call-ins should be an optional
> extra (including concurrent/reentrant foreign calls).
yeah, a much touted feature of haskell concurrency is that it is _fast_
_fast_, we shouldn't compromise that or its potential without very good
John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈
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