[Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[MightyByte]

I also think the downloads should be the minimal HP and separated from
getting started.  But that doesn't mean we can't bridge the gap with a
simple link at the bottom of the downloads page pointing people to the
next step: "Next...get started with Haskell" or something similar.
Then I'm sure we can come up with a getting started page that has
links to different tracks targeted at different audiences.  Based on
this discussion I can think of three obvious getting started tracks:

Total beginner command line ghci
Cabal-install
Stack

And we can even present them horizontally so they all are presented at
the same time and on the same level!

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 3:30 AM, Michael Snoyman <michael at fpcomplete.com> wrote:
> This sounds awesome, I'm totally behind it. Thank you Gershom!
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 10:09 AM Gershom B <gershomb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think this is a very good point being made. We should disengangle
>> the installer question from the “getting started” question.  Someone
>> on reddit even proposed having two seperate pages entirely.
>>
>> A getting started page that promoted a stack centric workflow for
>> beginners as a good “default path” would be reasonable in my eyes, and
>> certainly worth discussing. Certainly if it let us lay the downloads
>> page to rest with a single option for a minimal installer (with
>> perhaps slightly different branding as discussed on a ticket I linked
>> earlier — “Haskell Toolchain” or the like) that provided ghc, stack
>> and cabal all, then I think that would be a very good way to go.
>>
>> That way Nicolas and others who wanted to direct people to the
>> downloads page, and then wanted to teach them with one sort of
>> approach would be able to do so, people who wanted to direct people to
>> the downloads page, and teach them with a stack-based approach would
>> be able to do so, and people coming to the site directly could
>> immediately find a “getting started page” with a single approach that
>> got them up and running quickly, and that approach could well be
>> stack-oriented if that’s what people think gives the best experience
>> for that particular use case.
>>
>> (Again, I give the caveat I’m speaking just for myself here, and
>> thinking this through as an idea I’d like to hear others’ thoughts
>> on).
>>
>> —gershom
>>
>>
>> On August 31, 2016 at 5:48:41 PM, Nicolas Wu (nicolas.wu at gmail.com) wrote:
>> > Hi Paolo,
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:53 PM Paolo Giarrusso
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > > The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies
>> > > > should
>> > > be
>> > > > open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal:
>> > > > both
>> > > > have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other.
>> > >
>> > > I'm honestly confused what you're arguing. You say this decision isn't
>> > > for beginners, yet you propose offering the HP. So how should a
>> > > beginner install a package without first deciding whether to use
>> > > cabal-install or stack? Or can a beginner meaningfully be expected to
>> > > learn using both alternatives?
>> > >
>> >
>> > Sorry for not being clear, my bad. Hopefully I can clarify and elaborate
>> > a
>> > bit more.
>> >
>> > I think a beginner doesn't usually make the choice of how to use
>> > GHC/stack/cabal by themselves; they are usually being instructed by
>> > someone
>> > (or a resource) that has decided that for them. On that front I don't
>> > think
>> > there's a singular best way to approach this; there's diversity in the
>> > way
>> > people approach teaching and that's fine and healthy, there's also
>> > diversity in the way people learn and the goals they have with the
>> > language
>> > and that's fine and healthy too. We should be supporting people who want
>> > to
>> > learn the language as well as people who want to contribute to teaching.
>> > We
>> > should respect diversity in those roles; if someone wants their students
>> > to
>> > use only stack then by all means they can do so, that shouldn't stop
>> > others
>> > from using ghc or ghci directly.
>> >
>> > For instance, if a beginner is just trying to run small examples they
>> > see
>> > on a blog, then maybe all they need is a call to ghci. If they're
>> > learning
>> > about making a simple binary they might want ghc. If they want to have a
>> > whole managed project, perhaps they're after either stack or cabal. The
>> > point is that they're usually guided by something, and those guides do
>> > differ on what they prefer and recommend. The default download should
>> > easily support these different modes of learning and teaching.
>> >
>> >
>> > > Also, do both tools have their merits *for beginners*? We're talking
>> > > of cabal as-is, not of the ongoing work on new-build.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I'm talking about having a default that bundles tools like ghc, cabal,
>> > and
>> > stack, since these are the main tools our community has for compiling
>> > and
>> > executing Haskell code. I don't want to force people into one of
>> > these--whether that be students or educators. In all cases the default
>> > download recommendation should support all of these since they are the
>> > mainstream tools we use. To avoid confusion I think there should be only
>> > one recommended option on the main download page (and here the HP
>> > minimal
>> > seems to satisfy this, and stack seems to preclude this). The download
>> > page
>> > should also have a link to other resources (such as the HP Full, stack
>> > only, and other distributions like Haskell for Mac) on another page.
>> >
>> > Since there seems to be confusion about how the committee comes to a
>> > consensus I should note that at this point I'm only speaking for myself
>> > here. This is just my recommendation, and I'm open and willing to listen
>> > to
>> > other views before considering what I think is best. I am not usually
>> > overtly vocal in these discussions, but I do read what is said and form
>> > my
>> > own opinions.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > Nick
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>> >
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