From dagitj at gmail.com  Sat Aug 27 04:50:07 2016
From: dagitj at gmail.com (Jason Dagit)
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 21:50:07 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
Message-ID: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
immediately tells the user it's dead.

I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on the
grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.

Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
least on windows it does).

Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
one is merely reasonable.

Thanks,
Jason
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From acfoltzer at gmail.com  Sat Aug 27 05:05:49 2016
From: acfoltzer at gmail.com (Adam Foltzer)
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 22:05:49 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>

+1

Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt the
existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal, rather
than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place to
clarify that it refers to HP Full.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>
> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on the
> grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>
> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
> least on windows it does).
>
> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
> one is merely reasonable.
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
>
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From dagitj at gmail.com  Sat Aug 27 05:07:06 2016
From: dagitj at gmail.com (Jason Dagit)
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 22:07:06 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ-DSyxC79fK+yVNqfcZAgGUUvr8DtrCXdcf7ucKFOtC7CnL_w@mail.gmail.com>

That's a good option that didn't occur to me.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Adam Foltzer <acfoltzer at gmail.com> wrote:

> +1
>
> Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt the
> existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal, rather
> than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place to
> clarify that it refers to HP Full.
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
>> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
>> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
>> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>>
>> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on
>> the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>>
>> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
>> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
>> least on windows it does).
>>
>> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
>> one is merely reasonable.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-community mailing list
>> Haskell-community at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>>
>>
>
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From michael at fpcomplete.com  Sat Aug 27 17:15:38 2016
From: michael at fpcomplete.com (Michael Snoyman)
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 17:15:38 +0000
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKA2JgJy4dXggKdKG4iX4wOxV8d9CoHyi+0GQN0ZSVYGxyE2oQ@mail.gmail.com>

-1 on change to make the HP the first method, though I don't expect my
opinion to actually be considered.

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 7:50 AM Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>
> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on the
> grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>
> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
> least on windows it does).
>
> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
> one is merely reasonable.
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From johnw at newartisans.com  Sat Aug 27 22:01:42 2016
From: johnw at newartisans.com (John Wiegley)
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 15:01:42 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
 (Adam Foltzer's message of "Fri, 26 Aug 2016 22:05:49 -0700")
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m260ql27nd.fsf@newartisans.com>

>>>>> "AF" == Adam Foltzer <acfoltzer at gmail.com> writes:

AF> Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt the
AF> existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal, rather
AF> than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place to
AF> clarify that it refers to HP Full.

+1

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

From cma at bitemyapp.com  Sat Aug 27 22:14:16 2016
From: cma at bitemyapp.com (Christopher Allen)
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 17:14:16 -0500
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <m260ql27nd.fsf@newartisans.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <m260ql27nd.fsf@newartisans.com>
Message-ID: <CADnndOpTrE3wT4nKEXTq8pfK-ZEeOxPHY98Q2kzjtGOc82PkDg@mail.gmail.com>

-1 to make HP the first method.

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:01 PM, John Wiegley <johnw at newartisans.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "AF" == Adam Foltzer <acfoltzer at gmail.com> writes:
>
> AF> Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt the
> AF> existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal, rather
> AF> than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place to
> AF> clarify that it refers to HP Full.
>
> +1
>
> --
> John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
> http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community



-- 
Chris Allen
Currently working on http://haskellbook.com

From acfoltzer at gmail.com  Sat Aug 27 22:33:25 2016
From: acfoltzer at gmail.com (Adam Foltzer)
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2016 15:33:25 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CADnndOpTrE3wT4nKEXTq8pfK-ZEeOxPHY98Q2kzjtGOc82PkDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <m260ql27nd.fsf@newartisans.com>
 <CADnndOpTrE3wT4nKEXTq8pfK-ZEeOxPHY98Q2kzjtGOc82PkDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPorAaELxa8NPaxucV+Cwa+T5p+TK7T_T9km=wS+t1e41Qq89w@mail.gmail.com>

Just to clarify, I don't believe anyone is proposing to make HP Full the
first method, but rather to keep a minimal installer in the first position
in the form of HP Minimal.

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Christopher Allen <cma at bitemyapp.com>
wrote:

> -1 to make HP the first method.
>
> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:01 PM, John Wiegley <johnw at newartisans.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>> "AF" == Adam Foltzer <acfoltzer at gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > AF> Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could
> adapt the
> > AF> existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal,
> rather
> > AF> than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section
> in-place to
> > AF> clarify that it refers to HP Full.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > --
> > John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
> > http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2
> > _______________________________________________
> > Haskell-community mailing list
> > Haskell-community at haskell.org
> > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Allen
> Currently working on http://haskellbook.com
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From emertens at gmail.com  Sun Aug 28 16:16:35 2016
From: emertens at gmail.com (Eric Mertens)
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 09:16:35 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
Message-ID: <8C907584-FA73-4CE5-B5F4-D3CADC22BA84@gmail.com>

+1 to Jason’s proposal. I think that the minimal installation is a good default and I like that it comes with both stack and cabal.

Best regards,
Eric Mertens
glguy

From oldmanmike.dev at gmail.com  Sun Aug 28 18:03:12 2016
From: oldmanmike.dev at gmail.com (Michael Carpenter)
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 14:03:12 -0400
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAgKG_56_aHGKZfT2Mj8dRiDGXXMQETqN=-cmjS+cHFr1F5_mg@mail.gmail.com>

The whole reason it's deprecated in the first place is because FP Complete
would prefer to maintain, and receive issues for, the Stack project instead
of minghc. This seems like a pretty relevant detail that's not being
discussed here.

Also, why would it be advisable to promote HP over Stack?

Couple of notes:
1) As far as I can tell, this discussion is meaningless without the
feedback of newcomers to Haskell who are attempting to set up their
environment on Windows. Linux and Mac users don't need minghc and have a
package manager anyways to install whatever they want. Experienced users
aren't the priority of the Download page as we already know which download
we actually want and where it is, even if its less direct than the
beginners option.
2) This really just boils down to the political gridlock between HP and
Stack. Unless the actual parties involved in that gridlock can hammer out
an actual decision directly, why have an obscure vote on an obscure mailing
list? Such an act comes off as clandestine.
3) Any merit in a decision to favor HP over Stack would have to be grounded
in actual data as to which is the most surefire and simple way for
newcomers to get Haskell up and running on a Windows machine. I personally
don't have enough data points to make an educated decision here.

As a makeshift vote, I would elect that we keep the Download list the way
it is or just remove the Minimal Installer (which would obviously result
with Stack at the top and I'm assuming that's controversial for some
reason.)

-1

Thanks!
- Michael Carpenter

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>
> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on the
> grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>
> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
> least on windows it does).
>
> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
> one is merely reasonable.
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
>
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From gershomb at gmail.com  Sun Aug 28 18:22:09 2016
From: gershomb at gmail.com (Gershom B)
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 14:22:09 -0400
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAAgKG_56_aHGKZfT2Mj8dRiDGXXMQETqN=-cmjS+cHFr1F5_mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAgKG_56_aHGKZfT2Mj8dRiDGXXMQETqN=-cmjS+cHFr1F5_mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM8RHpH-+Be_CAS7m1i5On6XTJyciK1QZXreVLe5Jji+A1Pb2w@mail.gmail.com>

On August 28, 2016 at 2:03:18 PM, Michael Carpenter
(oldmanmike.dev at gmail.com) wrote:

> Also, why would it be advisable to promote HP over Stack?

The minimal HP, which is proposed to move to the top is simply an
installer that includes ghc, and core tools such as alex, happy, cabal
and stack. That’s it. It is nicer because, as we’ve discussed
previously, many users expect the full suite of command-line tools to
be available directly to them (i.e. they can just type ‘ghci’ and it
works) and many many tutorials and books are written assuming this.
Furthermore, it enables both stack and cabal workflows. As far as I
know, it has no real downsides and I don’t understand the opposition
to it outside of, perhaps, a belief that nobody should ever be
provided with the cabal binary. As such, replacing the existing
minimal installersm (which are not getting updated) with the
HP-minimal installers (which serve the same purpose, and are getting
updated) seems like the most obvious and striaghtforward course of
action to me.

> 1) As far as I can tell, this discussion is meaningless without the
> feedback of newcomers to Haskell who are attempting to set up their
> environment on Windows. Linux and Mac users don't need minghc and have a
> package manager anyways to install whatever they want. Experienced users
> aren't the priority of the Download page as we already know which download
> we actually want and where it is, even if its less direct than the
> beginners option.

I’m not sure how true this is — linux users at times want a newer
binary than is provided by their package manager. Also, many mac users
don’t use package managers.

> 2) This really just boils down to the political gridlock between HP and
> Stack. Unless the actual parties involved in that gridlock can hammer out
> an actual decision directly, why have an obscure vote on an obscure mailing
> list? Such an act comes off as clandestine.

As per: https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell.org_committee the list serves
as a forum for the committee, which is the historical body in charge
of haskell.org and its subdomains, to discuss actions under its
purview with a broader group of interested people. There is no polling
mechanism as such — the committee is empowered to act, but this forum
was created as a way to ensure that people had a single unified venue
to discuss publically such actions. It was announced both to
haskell-cafe as well as the reddit at the time of its creation. We
can’t expect committee members to follow discussions all over
reddit/twitter/etc nor can we expect such discussions to archive well
and uniformly so we have a future record.

—Gershom

From skosyrev at ptsecurity.com  Sun Aug 28 18:40:52 2016
From: skosyrev at ptsecurity.com (Kosyrev Serge)
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 21:40:52 +0300
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAM8RHpH-+Be_CAS7m1i5On6XTJyciK1QZXreVLe5Jji+A1Pb2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAgKG_56_aHGKZfT2Mj8dRiDGXXMQETqN=-cmjS+cHFr1F5_mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpH-+Be_CAS7m1i5On6XTJyciK1QZXreVLe5Jji+A1Pb2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87r398ybwr.fsf@ptsecurity.com>

Gershom B writes:
> Furthermore, it enables both stack and cabal workflows. As far as I
> know, it has no real downsides and I don’t understand the opposition
> to it outside of, perhaps, a belief that nobody should ever be
> provided with the cabal binary.

Gershom, that's how it looks to an outsider, indeed.

There appears to be a point of view, where the cabal thing is a stagnant piece
of technology that only serves to split the community and confuse newcomers
by detracting them from the easier, better way.

In such a view, it wouldn't be too big a leap to come to an understanding,
that phasing out cabal from all avenues does a good service to the
community.

-- 
с уважениeм / respectfully / Z poważaniem,
Косырев Сергей

From taylor at fausak.me  Sun Aug 28 19:34:42 2016
From: taylor at fausak.me (Taylor Fausak)
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 14:34:42 -0500
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
Message-ID: <1472412882.2804626.708527193.20CBB3BD@webmail.messagingengine.com>

I am in favor of removing the minimal installer.

I would prefer listing Stack above the Haskell Platform, even though the
Haskell Platform now includes Stack.
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From sibi at psibi.in  Sun Aug 28 20:30:44 2016
From: sibi at psibi.in (Sibi)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 02:00:44 +0530
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
Message-ID: <CAGDVp+3UAwiSmmAfqJxKq=uKBCGfK9YmA6qd4_LqFtx-aN20NQ@mail.gmail.com>

-1. The topmost method will target beginners of the language and
 should be Stack even if HP comes with Stack.

Regards,
Sibi
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From ganesh at earth.li  Sun Aug 28 22:17:27 2016
From: ganesh at earth.li (Ganesh Sittampalam)
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 23:17:27 +0100
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26dceecf-4628-eb99-87b5-a1f8754271c6@earth.li>

+1 - that seems like the simplest way of preserving the existing intention.

On 27/08/2016 06:05, Adam Foltzer wrote:
> +1
> 
> Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt
> the existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal,
> rather than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section
> in-place to clarify that it refers to HP Full.
> 
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com
> <mailto:dagitj at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hello all,
> 
>     I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the
>     Downloads page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads
>     <https://www.haskell.org/downloads>) is deprecated and "dead". This
>     creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get
>     haskell immediately tells the user it's dead.
> 
>     I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP
>     on the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
> 
>     Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list
>     the HP above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships
>     with stack (at least on windows it does).
> 
>     Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the
>     second one is merely reasonable.
> 
>     Thanks,
>     Jason
> 
> 
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Haskell-community mailing list
>     Haskell-community at haskell.org <mailto:Haskell-community at haskell.org>
>     http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>     <http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
> 


From acfoltzer at gmail.com  Sun Aug 28 23:55:38 2016
From: acfoltzer at gmail.com (Adam Foltzer)
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 16:55:38 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <26dceecf-4628-eb99-87b5-a1f8754271c6@earth.li>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <26dceecf-4628-eb99-87b5-a1f8754271c6@earth.li>
Message-ID: <CAPorAaHdza-oSin73Or97j9PBO9dGZUXgKbsSeQSfUL+EXYw=Q@mail.gmail.com>

A couple points and a question; please bear with the scattershot:

There appears to be a point of view, where the cabal thing is a stagnant
> piece
> of technology that only serves to split the community and confuse newcomers
> by detracting them from the easier, better way.


> In such a view, it wouldn't be too big a leap to come to an understanding,
> that phasing out cabal from all avenues does a good service to the
> community.


If anyone does indeed have this view, please be assured that it is far from
universal. Cabal is essential for many Haskell workflows. I and other
practitioners use Stack for some projects and Cabal for others because both
tools have their strengths, weaknesses, and mutually unique capabilities.
The view that Cabal is stagnant is very outdated, most notably with respect
to the overall pace and vigor of the Cabal issue tracker, and the
excitement around the `cabal new-build` Nix-style commands.

-1. The topmost method will target beginners of the language and
>  should be Stack even if HP comes with Stack.


Many beginners will be picking up a copy of a book, or working through an
established curriculum. While the cutting edge of published guides and
course curricula may have converted to Stack, there is a vast quantity of
material for beginners that assumes you can type `ghci` and `cabal install`
at the prompt. Which particular materials to recommend to a beginner is a
matter of reasonable debate, but the best support we can give to those
beginners as stewards of the infrastructure is to highlight an option that
allows beginners to quickly succeed with the option of their choice.

should be Stack even if HP comes with Stack.


What is the reasoning here? How does having other tools bundled take away
from the new user experience?

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Ganesh Sittampalam <ganesh at earth.li> wrote:

> +1 - that seems like the simplest way of preserving the existing intention.
>
> On 27/08/2016 06:05, Adam Foltzer wrote:
> > +1
> >
> > Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt
> > the existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal,
> > rather than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section
> > in-place to clarify that it refers to HP Full.
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com
> > <mailto:dagitj at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hello all,
> >
> >     I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the
> >     Downloads page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads
> >     <https://www.haskell.org/downloads>) is deprecated and "dead". This
> >     creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get
> >     haskell immediately tells the user it's dead.
> >
> >     I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP
> >     on the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
> >
> >     Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list
> >     the HP above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships
> >     with stack (at least on windows it does).
> >
> >     Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the
> >     second one is merely reasonable.
> >
> >     Thanks,
> >     Jason
> >
> >
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     Haskell-community mailing list
> >     Haskell-community at haskell.org <mailto:Haskell-community at haskell.org>
> >     http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
> >     <http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Haskell-community mailing list
> > Haskell-community at haskell.org
> > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From ekmett at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 05:43:07 2016
From: ekmett at gmail.com (Edward Kmett)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 01:43:07 -0400
Subject: [Haskell-community] Resignation
Message-ID: <CAJumaK8p+cHyTAVtxYPpkjnwPGQHNbWRBzKjHOq_FpDNydxafw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm officially resigning from the haskell.org committee effective
immediately after the end of the Summer of Haskell.

To those of you on the committee, I apologize for abandoning you.

The reason I joined and have remained on the committee for the past several
years is entirely to deal with the needs of the Summer of Code, both
financially and administratively. It has provided me a way to give back to
a community that has been so incredibly good to me.

When Galois managed our finances, someone had to deal with it. When we
moved into SPI, it ironically started taking more effort. When we formed a
non-profit in December things started looking up in terms of administrative
overhead, but then we crushingly weren't accepted into the program this
year.

In the wake of that I was somehow able to raise funding and wrangle us
around $40,000 in sponsorship to fund eight students to work on Haskell for
the summer. The outpouring of goodwill there was tangible. Those projects
are wrapping up nicely now.

This part of my role within the committee has been as life affirming and
wonderful as anything I've ever done.

However, the job is coming at an ever greater personal cost that I'm simply
unwilling to continue to bear. My wife has come to dread the "there's
someone wrong on the internet" moments, and I've come to realize it isn't
fair to her -- I simply find myself spread too thin.

I shall continue to serve on the Core Libraries Committee, as I do continue
to care deeply about the structure of the language we all love, if not so
much the tooling around it, and I am willing to put in the time to on that
front where I feel much more strongly about the issues at hand and have
what I hope is a nuanced opinion to offer. Ultimately, the barbs thrown
around, say, during the Foldable/Traversable Proposal, while heated, never
felt personal, merely rational disagreement between well meaning parties
with different priorities.

I care a great deal about our community; it was ultimately Cale and the
rest of the folks in #haskell channel that lured me in at first, not any of
the technical merits of the language. Those only took hold of me later on,
but without that comfortable environment never would have had a chance to
set.

I do not care enough about the contents of a web page to let my health,
relationships, productivity and home life suffer further. I hope that by
stepping back I can continue to retain or perhaps regain some of those
friendships that recent events have strained.


--Edward Kmett
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From fa-ml at ariis.it  Mon Aug 29 08:47:37 2016
From: fa-ml at ariis.it (Francesco Ariis)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 10:47:37 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] Resignation
In-Reply-To: <CAJumaK8p+cHyTAVtxYPpkjnwPGQHNbWRBzKjHOq_FpDNydxafw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJumaK8p+cHyTAVtxYPpkjnwPGQHNbWRBzKjHOq_FpDNydxafw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160829084737.GA3343@casa.casa>

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 01:43:07AM -0400, Edward Kmett wrote:
> I'm officially resigning from the haskell.org committee effective
> immediately after the end of the Summer of Haskell.

Thanks for your work in the the Committee, especially the Summer
of Haskell, a titanic effort in such a short time.

From zocca.marco at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 09:15:40 2016
From: zocca.marco at gmail.com (Marco Zocca)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 11:15:40 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] re. haskell.org download page, the `evil cabal`,
	etc.
Message-ID: <CAKE6T0Qy0aeLe3PxRHAY=tEVUGNqnD5yfi4HybO86bELgGersA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

   I wish `stack` were listed and highlighted as the preferred method
of getting GHC + related tools on haskell.org .

I find the tools and infrastructure developed by FP Complete to be
robust and intuitive. This is _not_ to disparage all the good work
that went into cabal-install and Hackage. Rather, the FPCo tools have
been a net evolution.

The technical merits are undeniable, and I can see in Mr Snoyman's
remarks the concerns of a technology leader to remove all sources of
error and friction.
Even the `stack` packaged up with HP quickly becomes out of date.

In general, we are witnessing the coming of age of the language, and
the (slightly) different priorities (and modes of operation) faced by
industrial and "casual" users.

At the same time, I have a nagging wish such critical parts of Haskell
weren't under direct control of a corporation, albeit one with such a
transparent (and efficient!) open-source policy.

I wish you all a good day with the hope we'll get back soon at
discussing types rather than politics.

Kind regards,
Marco

From hvriedel at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 09:46:44 2016
From: hvriedel at gmail.com (Herbert Valerio Riedel)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 11:46:44 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 (Jason Dagit's message of "Fri, 26 Aug 2016 21:50:07 -0700")
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87twe329h7.fsf@gmail.com>

On 2016-08-27 at 06:50:07 +0200, Jason Dagit wrote:

> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>
> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on the
> grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.

You seem to be referring to the minimal installer for Windows mostly
(i.e. MinGHC), and it makes sense what you propose in that context.

However, I consider the Linux-related information for minimal installer hosted at

  https://www.haskell.org/downloads/linux

still very relevant, despite MinGHC being obsoleted. Not the least,
because the Stack or HP+Stack options currently both fail to provide a
good beginner experience on all Linux distributions.

Currently, for the just released Ubuntu 16.10 beta you need to use the
system-packaged GHC 7.10.3 package as otherwise you'll likely run into
linker errors due to PIE (and other Linux distros appear to be switching
to PIE by default in their GCC toolchain as well).

I still haven't had time to patch up my GHC PPA to add support for
Ubuntu 16.10, nor do GHC HQ provided GHC bindists work there yet
out-of-the-box, nor do we have addressed the issue for GHC 8.0.2 yet. So
it's unclear to me when the HP distro will have a GHC that works on
PIE-by-default Linux distros.

That being said, assuming the minimal installer variant get dropped from
downloads, where is downloads/linux going to move to, and how will it be
discoverable in future?

Cheers,
  hvr

From alexander at plaimi.net  Mon Aug 29 10:54:53 2016
From: alexander at plaimi.net (Alexander Berntsen)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 12:54:53 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] Resignation
In-Reply-To: <CAJumaK8p+cHyTAVtxYPpkjnwPGQHNbWRBzKjHOq_FpDNydxafw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJumaK8p+cHyTAVtxYPpkjnwPGQHNbWRBzKjHOq_FpDNydxafw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <327e5ec8-3fbb-1c40-94fd-0c9a4020ea25@plaimi.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

A thousand thank yous for your work.
- -- 
Alexander
alexander at plaimi.net
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander
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From skosyrev at ptsecurity.com  Mon Aug 29 11:13:25 2016
From: skosyrev at ptsecurity.com (Kosyrev Serge)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 14:13:25 +0300
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAPorAaHdza-oSin73Or97j9PBO9dGZUXgKbsSeQSfUL+EXYw=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <26dceecf-4628-eb99-87b5-a1f8754271c6@earth.li>
 <CAPorAaHdza-oSin73Or97j9PBO9dGZUXgKbsSeQSfUL+EXYw=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87wpiz3k16.fsf@ptsecurity.com>

Adam Foltzer writes:
> The view that Cabal is stagnant is very outdated,
> most notably with respect to the overall pace and vigor of the Cabal
> issue tracker, and the excitement around the `cabal new-build`
> Nix-style commands.

What about the backpack-related work?  Isn't cabal-install where the
user-facing CLI side of this work is most likely to be landed?

-- 
с уважениeм / respectfully / Z poważaniem,
Косырев Сергей

From fa-ml at ariis.it  Mon Aug 29 11:35:04 2016
From: fa-ml at ariis.it (Francesco Ariis)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 13:35:04 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160829113504.GA5296@casa.casa>

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:05:49PM -0700, Adam Foltzer wrote:
> Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt the
> existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal, rather
> than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place to
> clarify that it refers to HP Full.

As having "deprecated" link in the download page is a no-no and warrants
a quick fix.

Adam Foltzer's proposal is the most simple to implement (well, I should
say "has the least friction in a hotly debated topic"), hence most
reasonable to me.


From simon at banquise.net  Mon Aug 29 13:26:24 2016
From: simon at banquise.net (Simon Marechal)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 15:26:24 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
Message-ID: <CANT5+qZmd+AeJjk_Yuu4UaUwd64_NnZKC4-OBVZL+8=vFLf_fQ@mail.gmail.com>

(sorry for not answering to a previous message, I just subscribed).

I think there should be a single option on the download page. The minimal
HP seems OK to me, but I understand how not having control on the
distribution of stack, while at the same time having to support it, could
be a problem.

So here is my 2c:

 * Have minimal HP be the only choice. I think this page is engaging and
clear, and is a good example of what a beginner would like to see :
https://haskell-lang.org/get-started

 * If at all possible, find a way to work with stack maintainers so that
the HP stack install process matches that of the standalone tool.
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From jan.gerlinger at gmx.de  Mon Aug 29 14:43:11 2016
From: jan.gerlinger at gmx.de (Jan Gerlinger)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 16:43:11 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community]  haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CANT5+qZmd+AeJjk_Yuu4UaUwd64_NnZKC4-OBVZL+8=vFLf_fQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANT5+qZmd+AeJjk_Yuu4UaUwd64_NnZKC4-OBVZL+8=vFLf_fQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7176a9f0-c425-082f-047a-9d557fe7f66b@gmx.de>


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Hi all,

I believe haskell.org and its download section should be directed to
total beginners and they should not be confronted with multiple choices.

As someone who has personally seen people willing to learn Haskell give
up, because they were burnt by the global package database, I think any
global persistent state should be avoided in the tools recommended. This
especially concerns all packages installed globally by default by HP.
Cabal's default workflow (currently and probably for a long time in the
future) also installs packages globally and is thus harmful for
beginners, as they are not able to resolve conflicts and errors.

This leaves me with Stack or a Minimal HP stripped down to only consist
of GHC and Stack. Since a global GHC is not needed when using Stack and
telling people to use `stack ghci` instead of `ghci` is absolutely no
problem in my experience, I would go with Stack.

To summarise:

* haskell.org download section should cater to total beginners.

* Giving multiple options is actively harmful, there should only be one.

* Minimal HP is the wrong choice for this option. Stack is.


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From yann.esposito at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 14:56:18 2016
From: yann.esposito at gmail.com (Yann Esposito (yogsototh))
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 16:56:18 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <mailman.8.1472472002.4443.haskell-community@haskell.org>
References: <mailman.8.1472472002.4443.haskell-community@haskell.org>
Message-ID: <1CDC05FC-D1D7-4472-99B9-0FC33253B43D@gmail.com>

As an Haskell user which had difficulties using previous HP version and as a now happy stack user I would really prefer to see stack at the top.

I already told some of my friends to use stack to start learning Haskell.

Just my 2c.
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From friedrichwiemer at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 14:58:57 2016
From: friedrichwiemer at gmail.com (Friedrich Wiemer)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 16:58:57 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <7176a9f0-c425-082f-047a-9d557fe7f66b@gmx.de>
References: <CANT5+qZmd+AeJjk_Yuu4UaUwd64_NnZKC4-OBVZL+8=vFLf_fQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7176a9f0-c425-082f-047a-9d557fe7f66b@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <a79eff98-5e97-17a7-3b30-05cc6cf8e4c0@gmail.com>

Hi all,

Jan has my full support -- I'm just one of these beginners, meaning I
have tried several attempts to get started with Haskell and gave up
after fighting some days with cabal.
Currently I give stack a shot and have no other system GHC installed.
This works very nicely for me and I have not encountered any problems.

I would be really happy with seeing this approach supported by the whole
ecosystem.

Cheers,
Friedrich

On 29.08.2016 16:43, Jan Gerlinger wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I believe haskell.org and its download section should be directed to
> total beginners and they should not be confronted with multiple choices.
> 
> As someone who has personally seen people willing to learn Haskell give
> up, because they were burnt by the global package database, I think any
> global persistent state should be avoided in the tools recommended. This
> especially concerns all packages installed globally by default by HP.
> Cabal's default workflow (currently and probably for a long time in the
> future) also installs packages globally and is thus harmful for
> beginners, as they are not able to resolve conflicts and errors.
> 
> This leaves me with Stack or a Minimal HP stripped down to only consist
> of GHC and Stack. Since a global GHC is not needed when using Stack and
> telling people to use `stack ghci` instead of `ghci` is absolutely no
> problem in my experience, I would go with Stack.
> 
> To summarise:
> 
> * haskell.org download section should cater to total beginners.
> 
> * Giving multiple options is actively harmful, there should only be one.
> 
> * Minimal HP is the wrong choice for this option. Stack is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
> 

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From acfoltzer at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 15:00:22 2016
From: acfoltzer at gmail.com (Adam Foltzer)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 08:00:22 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <20160829113504.GA5296@casa.casa>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160829113504.GA5296@casa.casa>
Message-ID: <CAPorAaFWJhT4NSc6sUPaX_HX+CnDL0voLKR9i_ks0+LF0iGBiA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> What about the backpack-related work?  Isn't cabal-install where the
> user-facing CLI side of this work is most likely to be landed?


Backpack is also very exciting, indeed!

That being said, assuming the minimal installer variant get dropped from
> downloads, where is downloads/linux going to move to, and how will it be
> discoverable in future?


This a really important point.

Does anyone know if the distributions listed on the HP Linux page have
packaged the minimal platform? As it is right now, it appears that Windows
and Mac send you to a page where you can choose either, but Linux only
provides instructions for Full except under the Generic option.

If distros start to package HP Minimal, I would propose replacing the
Fedora and Arch instructions on downloads/linux with that, but we'll want
to keep the Ubuntu instructions around due to your excellent PPA. I'm not
sure how that should look concretely, though, given that it would
essentially become a fourth option if HP Minimal replaces the current
minimal installer section.



On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 4:35 AM, Francesco Ariis <fa-ml at ariis.it> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:05:49PM -0700, Adam Foltzer wrote:
> > Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt
> the
> > existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal,
> rather
> > than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place
> to
> > clarify that it refers to HP Full.
>
> As having "deprecated" link in the download page is a no-no and warrants
> a quick fix.
>
> Adam Foltzer's proposal is the most simple to implement (well, I should
> say "has the least friction in a hotly debated topic"), hence most
> reasonable to me.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 15:01:27 2016
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:01:27 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] Fwd: Mirroring on Google groups
In-Reply-To: <CAAcnjCTx1vxR5S_y19WGtnxyve4udoHj9pvn70a28-dUY+d66Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAcnjCTx1vxR5S_y19WGtnxyve4udoHj9pvn70a28-dUY+d66Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAcnjCTotrCaLt-A1XJpG_rZV7bfj_F9VB9Feq3vAM=abKG9ug@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Haskell-cafe is mirrored on Google Groups at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/haskell-cafe, as far as I can
tell. That enables anybody to join that ML and participate in existing
discussions. Would such mirroring be an option here too?

Cheers,
--
Paolo G. Giarrusso - Ph.D. Student, Tübingen University
http://ps.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/team/giarrusso/

From paolo.giarrusso at uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Aug 29 14:55:30 2016
From: paolo.giarrusso at uni-tuebingen.de (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 16:55:30 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on this
	ML?
Message-ID: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Replying to https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-community/2016-August/000127.html
(I can't reply properly otherwise as I just subscribed):

> > 2) This really just boils down to the political gridlock between HP and
> > Stack. Unless the actual parties involved in that gridlock can hammer out
> > an actual decision directly, why have an obscure vote on an obscure mailing
> > list? Such an act comes off as clandestine.
>
> As per: https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell.org_committee the list serves
> as a forum for the committee, which is the historical body in charge
> of haskell.org and its subdomains, to discuss actions under its
> purview with a broader group of interested people.

> There is no polling
> mechanism as such — the committee is empowered to act, but this forum
> was created as a way to ensure that people had a single unified venue
> to discuss publically such actions.

> It was announced both to
> haskell-cafe as well as the reddit at the time of its creation.

If the poll was announced there, there would still be extra friction.
But IIUC only the mailing list was announced there.

> We
> can’t expect committee members to follow discussions all over
> reddit/twitter/etc nor can we expect such discussions to archive well
> and uniformly so we have a future record.

If you want to have a poll over a mailing list, what about e.g.
haskell-cafe? Or naming any other place where more people have access?

I might understand the concern about archiving, but haskell-cafe
solves that. And "the committee can't be expected to follow
discussions" and "is empowered to act" does sound like "the committee
can't be expected to listen to the community".

Cheers,
-- 
Paolo G. Giarrusso - Ph.D. Student, Tübingen University
http://ps.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/team/giarrusso/

From gershomb at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 15:21:13 2016
From: gershomb at gmail.com (Gershom B)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 11:21:13 -0400
Subject: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on
 this ML?
In-Reply-To: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>

On August 29, 2016 at 11:15:19 AM, Paolo Giarrusso
(paolo.giarrusso at uni-tuebingen.de) wrote:

> If the poll was announced there, there would still be extra friction.
> But IIUC only the mailing list was announced there.

There is no poll. There is a modest discussion kicked off by Jason
Dagit (who used to serve on the committee, but has not been on it for
some time now) about a modest change (at this point swapping the
bitrotted minimal installers for the HP minimal installers which are
current). The committee does not operate by poll, it operates on the
basis of broad discussion (with this list being the preferred venue)
and then making choices amongst committee members as informed by that
discussion. This is laid out at
https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell.org_committee

> I might understand the concern about archiving, but haskell-cafe
> solves that. And "the committee can't be expected to follow
> discussions" and "is empowered to act" does sound like "the committee
> can't be expected to listen to the community”.

It means that committee members should be expected to chase all over
social media and sort through lots of poor signal/noise ratio to find
potentially relevant discussions at all times. Rather, it is better to
centralize these things to the extent possible.That’s all.

—gershom

From nicolas.wu at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 15:29:03 2016
From: nicolas.wu at gmail.com (Nicolas Wu)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 15:29:03 +0000
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I think having multiple options is confusing to beginners, and so I'd like
to see a single download option on the download page.

For me it's important that we have a way for beginners to use tools like
ghc and ghci on the command line directly in order to run small throw-away
programs.

The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should be
open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both
have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other. The default
installation should provide both of these as well as other tools core to
building ghc.

As such, I'm in favour of having the HP as the only option.

Nick

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:50 AM Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>
> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on the
> grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>
> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
> least on windows it does).
>
> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
> one is merely reasonable.
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From skosyrev at ptsecurity.com  Mon Aug 29 15:39:00 2016
From: skosyrev at ptsecurity.com (Kosyrev Serge)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 18:39:00 +0300
Subject: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on
	this ML?
In-Reply-To: <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87r39737qj.fsf@ptsecurity.com>

Gershom B writes:
>> I might understand the concern about archiving, but haskell-cafe
>> solves that. And "the committee can't be expected to follow
>> discussions" and "is empowered to act" does sound like "the committee
>> can't be expected to listen to the community”.

Technical issues ought to be decided on their technical substance,
not through popularity contests, aren't they?

> It means that committee members should be expected to chase all over
> social media and sort through lots of poor signal/noise ratio to find
> potentially relevant discussions at all times. Rather, it is better to
> centralize these things to the extent possible.That’s all.

Requiring the committee to maintain quality discussion across a spectrum of
$RANDOM_MEDIA_OF_THE_DAY sounds like punishment to me, indeed.

And if we are to choose one medium -- repeating points made on reddit:

> There is a number of reasons to prefer mailing lists to the more
> ephemeral mediums. Those immediately coming to mind are:
>
>  - slower pacing positively affects elaboration of thought
>  - real names nudge towards responsibility
>  - well-tuned tools to deal with long, complex conversations
>  - a non-ephemeral paper-trail that can be dealt with at one's own pace
>  - absence of distracting noise like "thumbs up" buttons

-- 
с уважениeм / respectfully / Z poważaniem,
Косырев Сергей

From adam at bergmark.nl  Mon Aug 29 15:41:45 2016
From: adam at bergmark.nl (Adam Bergmark)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:41:45 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on
 this ML?
In-Reply-To: <87r39737qj.fsf@ptsecurity.com>
References: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <87r39737qj.fsf@ptsecurity.com>
Message-ID: <CACnqJZauwpquYQDrnDa5bvZnJskttwmb2rsE+jihErPp8AmSiA@mail.gmail.com>

> And if we are to choose one medium -- repeating points made on reddit

As far as I know it is not allowed to use voting like this on Reddit

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Kosyrev Serge <skosyrev at ptsecurity.com>
wrote:

> Gershom B writes:
> >> I might understand the concern about archiving, but haskell-cafe
> >> solves that. And "the committee can't be expected to follow
> >> discussions" and "is empowered to act" does sound like "the committee
> >> can't be expected to listen to the community”.
>
> Technical issues ought to be decided on their technical substance,
> not through popularity contests, aren't they?
>
> > It means that committee members should be expected to chase all over
> > social media and sort through lots of poor signal/noise ratio to find
> > potentially relevant discussions at all times. Rather, it is better to
> > centralize these things to the extent possible.That’s all.
>
> Requiring the committee to maintain quality discussion across a spectrum of
> $RANDOM_MEDIA_OF_THE_DAY sounds like punishment to me, indeed.
>
> And if we are to choose one medium -- repeating points made on reddit:
>
> > There is a number of reasons to prefer mailing lists to the more
> > ephemeral mediums. Those immediately coming to mind are:
> >
> >  - slower pacing positively affects elaboration of thought
> >  - real names nudge towards responsibility
> >  - well-tuned tools to deal with long, complex conversations
> >  - a non-ephemeral paper-trail that can be dealt with at one's own pace
> >  - absence of distracting noise like "thumbs up" buttons
>
> --
> с уважениeм / respectfully / Z poważaniem,
> Косырев Сергей
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From dagitj at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 16:44:02 2016
From: dagitj at gmail.com (Jason Dagit)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 09:44:02 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on
 this ML?
In-Reply-To: <CACnqJZauwpquYQDrnDa5bvZnJskttwmb2rsE+jihErPp8AmSiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <87r39737qj.fsf@ptsecurity.com>
 <CACnqJZauwpquYQDrnDa5bvZnJskttwmb2rsE+jihErPp8AmSiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ-DSywhbtpgtQcnot6dvvpZ2xn=KEpP3J585km+fr_vKLFkLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 8:41 AM, Adam Bergmark <adam at bergmark.nl> wrote:

> > And if we are to choose one medium -- repeating points made on reddit
>
> As far as I know it is not allowed to use voting like this on Reddit
>

I suppose the users of a subreddit (or equivalently thread) could agree to
use votes that way, but you are correct about the site-wide policy of
reddit. Votes are intended to give a sense of whether a comment (or thread)
is on topic and providing value to the discussion (or community).


>
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Kosyrev Serge <skosyrev at ptsecurity.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Gershom B writes:
>> >> I might understand the concern about archiving, but haskell-cafe
>> >> solves that. And "the committee can't be expected to follow
>> >> discussions" and "is empowered to act" does sound like "the committee
>> >> can't be expected to listen to the community”.
>>
>> Technical issues ought to be decided on their technical substance,
>> not through popularity contests, aren't they?
>>
>> > It means that committee members should be expected to chase all over
>> > social media and sort through lots of poor signal/noise ratio to find
>> > potentially relevant discussions at all times. Rather, it is better to
>> > centralize these things to the extent possible.That’s all.
>>
>> Requiring the committee to maintain quality discussion across a spectrum
>> of
>> $RANDOM_MEDIA_OF_THE_DAY sounds like punishment to me, indeed.
>>
>> And if we are to choose one medium -- repeating points made on reddit:
>>
>> > There is a number of reasons to prefer mailing lists to the more
>> > ephemeral mediums. Those immediately coming to mind are:
>> >
>> >  - slower pacing positively affects elaboration of thought
>> >  - real names nudge towards responsibility
>> >  - well-tuned tools to deal with long, complex conversations
>> >  - a non-ephemeral paper-trail that can be dealt with at one's own pace
>> >  - absence of distracting noise like "thumbs up" buttons
>>
>> --
>> с уважениeм / respectfully / Z poważaniem,
>> Косырев Сергей
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-community mailing list
>> Haskell-community at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
>
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From benjaminfjones at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 17:42:56 2016
From: benjaminfjones at gmail.com (Benjamin Jones)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:42:56 +0000
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALfiL_Kgkoi9HFcsTJMvN4y4ic47jCPFOYq0g6XsYCmMSrywKA@mail.gmail.com>

+1 to Adam Foltzer's "in-place" suggestion.

I was very happy when the HP team released a minimal installer. This is
what I would point people to 95% of the time, especially beginners.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:05 PM Adam Foltzer <acfoltzer at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt the
> existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal, rather
> than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place to
> clarify that it refers to HP Full.
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
>> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
>> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
>> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>>
>> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on
>> the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>>
>> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
>> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
>> least on windows it does).
>>
>> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
>> one is merely reasonable.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-community mailing list
>> Haskell-community at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From steven.syrek at gmail.com  Mon Aug 29 22:11:20 2016
From: steven.syrek at gmail.com (Steven J. Syrek)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 22:11:20 +0000
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAPorAaFWJhT4NSc6sUPaX_HX+CnDL0voLKR9i_ks0+LF0iGBiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPorAaHnZbu5fX=NzMp6a+bigXuiRqaObwR1E5B-h2Nr8DaXeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160829113504.GA5296@casa.casa>
 <CAPorAaFWJhT4NSc6sUPaX_HX+CnDL0voLKR9i_ks0+LF0iGBiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHrGWmq9506L7YSUbibNoWicz_R60LVooHDzpb=XFRg8R+hx+g@mail.gmail.com>

As a beginner, I found Stack far and away the better solution. HP polluted
my system, causing me problems it took me literally years to track down,
even after I thought I deleted it. Even if it were to improve, I will never
trust it again, and I think my sentiment is widespread. It's already
confusing to have multiple download options and multiple webpages. At the
moment, nothing beats "brew install haskell-stack" (for me, but not much
more complicated to follow the instructions on the excellent Stack hp), so
I don't see why you wouldn't just make that the one and only recommended
installation method. Everyone is being steered away from HP, anyway, and I
sort of wonder how many people who read this list are still using it
themselves and not Stack?

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 11:00 AM Adam Foltzer <acfoltzer at gmail.com> wrote:

> What about the backpack-related work?  Isn't cabal-install where the
>> user-facing CLI side of this work is most likely to be landed?
>
>
> Backpack is also very exciting, indeed!
>
> That being said, assuming the minimal installer variant get dropped from
>> downloads, where is downloads/linux going to move to, and how will it be
>> discoverable in future?
>
>
> This a really important point.
>
> Does anyone know if the distributions listed on the HP Linux page have
> packaged the minimal platform? As it is right now, it appears that Windows
> and Mac send you to a page where you can choose either, but Linux only
> provides instructions for Full except under the Generic option.
>
> If distros start to package HP Minimal, I would propose replacing the
> Fedora and Arch instructions on downloads/linux with that, but we'll want
> to keep the Ubuntu instructions around due to your excellent PPA. I'm not
> sure how that should look concretely, though, given that it would
> essentially become a fourth option if HP Minimal replaces the current
> minimal installer section.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 4:35 AM, Francesco Ariis <fa-ml at ariis.it> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:05:49PM -0700, Adam Foltzer wrote:
>> > Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt
>> the
>> > existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal,
>> rather
>> > than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place
>> to
>> > clarify that it refers to HP Full.
>>
>> As having "deprecated" link in the download page is a no-no and warrants
>> a quick fix.
>>
>> Adam Foltzer's proposal is the most simple to implement (well, I should
>> say "has the least friction in a hotly debated topic"), hence most
>> reasonable to me.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-community mailing list
>> Haskell-community at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From michael at snoyman.com  Tue Aug 30 04:32:24 2016
From: michael at snoyman.com (Michael Snoyman)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:32:24 +0300
Subject: [Haskell-community] HP Minimal+Stack issue on Windows
Message-ID: <CAKA2Jg+Q2Kro84XON7Uwb3+6fUxDJ_nMeAP9bcD_W0KqbG-LRA@mail.gmail.com>

I had a niggling worry last night, and it turned out to be an actual issue,
filed at:

https://github.com/haskell/haskell-platform/issues/251

Note that this is a serious issue; it will make Stack essentially unusable
for anyone using HP Minimal on Windows and trying to use GHC 8. Regardless
of any other discussions around changing the download page, I'd request
that this bug be resolved first. Not only will it cause user problems, but
will potentially cause a significant maintenance burden for Stack (I heard
from Stack maintainers in the past that a similar situation existed with
GHC for Mac OS X shipping an old buggy Stack version).
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From michael at fpcomplete.com  Tue Aug 30 04:38:06 2016
From: michael at fpcomplete.com (Michael Snoyman)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:38:06 +0300
Subject: [Haskell-community] HP Minimal+Stack issue on Windows
Message-ID: <CAKA2JgLd5RPxYCnqBCbk+YmxYuc5a1AtKZerLMUEQ2Rk+Sy-qg@mail.gmail.com>

I had a niggling worry last night, and it turned out to be an actual issue,
filed at:

https://github.com/haskell/haskell-platform/issues/251

Note that this is a serious issue; it will make Stack essentially unusable
for anyone using HP Minimal on Windows and trying to use GHC 8. Regardless
of any other discussions around changing the download page, I'd request
that this bug be resolved first. Not only will it cause user problems, but
will potentially cause a significant maintenance burden for Stack (I heard
from Stack maintainers in the past that a similar situation existed with
GHC for Mac OS X shipping an old buggy Stack version).

(Sorry if a duplicate, I mistakenly sent from the wrong address previously.)
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From paolo.giarrusso at uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Aug 30 05:24:03 2016
From: paolo.giarrusso at uni-tuebingen.de (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:24:03 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on
 this ML?
In-Reply-To: <87r39737qj.fsf@ptsecurity.com>
References: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <87r39737qj.fsf@ptsecurity.com>
Message-ID: <CAAcnjCThgp6VeZmO3UN=PX_Uo7oY1uFToJTZv+1nqdrQ9=h8Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 August 2016 at 17:39, Kosyrev Serge <skosyrev at ptsecurity.com> wrote:
> Gershom B writes:
>>> I might understand the concern about archiving, but haskell-cafe
>>> solves that. And "the committee can't be expected to follow
>>> discussions" and "is empowered to act" does sound like "the committee
>>> can't be expected to listen to the community”.

> Technical issues ought to be decided on their technical substance,
> not through popularity contests, aren't they?

Such discussions should be based on appropriate evidence. And for
software, user satisfaction is certainly relevant. In particular, if a
technical argument suggests a software should satisfy its users
better, and users aren't satisfied, the argument seems poorly
predictive.

> And if we are to choose one medium

I specifically mentioned haskell-cafe since it's a mailing list.
Of course, if you really wanted to poll the community, a mailing list
has no support for aggregation and won't scale.

Cheers,
-- 
Paolo G. Giarrusso - Ph.D. Student, Tübingen University
http://ps.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/team/giarrusso/

From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Tue Aug 30 06:13:01 2016
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 08:13:01 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on
 this ML?
In-Reply-To: <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAcnjCTsPDsBWjTRzq2dSVkkt0ednVngrXYvWF1-MiAdfkCBYw@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 August 2016 at 17:21, Gershom B <gershomb at gmail.com> wrote:
> On August 29, 2016 at 11:15:19 AM, Paolo Giarrusso
> (paolo.giarrusso at uni-tuebingen.de) wrote:
>
>> If the poll was announced there, there would still be extra friction.
>> But IIUC only the mailing list was announced there.
>
> There is no poll. There is a modest discussion kicked off by Jason
> Dagit (who used to serve on the committee, but has not been on it for
> some time now) about a modest change (at this point swapping the
> bitrotted minimal installers for the HP minimal installers which are
> current).

One might initially think that "what's the best entry point into using
Haskell" is a simple question.
However, even without taking a side, we all know the topic is in fact
highly contentious and it has been in the past.

And since you're a community leader and I'm just a modest Haskeller,
I'm sure you realize the discussion topic is not perceived as modest.
At best one could argue the discussion *should* be modest, but there's
technical content to it.

It's also known that the committee's decision have been questioned for
allegedly not listening to the community on this topic.
I dislike the allegations (and find the tone unproductive), yet I
think community input would be important and it's in the committee's
best interest to both listen and be perceived as listening.

> The committee does not operate by poll, it operates on the
> basis of broad discussion (with this list being the preferred venue)
> and then making choices amongst committee members as informed by that
> discussion. This is laid out at
> https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell.org_committee

Are these procedures the best to achieve the Committee's stated goals?

>> I might understand the concern about archiving, but haskell-cafe
>> solves that. And "the committee can't be expected to follow
>> discussions" and "is empowered to act" does sound like "the committee
>> can't be expected to listen to the community”.
>
> It means that committee members should be expected to chase all over
> social media and sort through lots of poor signal/noise ratio to find
> potentially relevant discussions at all times. Rather, it is better to
> centralize these things to the extent possible.That’s all.

I think that's a strawman. I didn't propose to spend the day on
Twitter, but to solicit input on questions of general relevance in
venues where the community is. To send a post to haskell-cafe and
follow the discussion—that doesn't imply following the rest of the ML
(at least with the Google Groups interface, I'm sure there are many
other solutions).

I realize that might require time, but I frankly don't expect that
"seeking to service the open source Haskell community" is easy.

Cheers,
-- 
Paolo G. Giarrusso - Ph.D. Student, Tübingen University
http://ps.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/team/giarrusso/

From gershomb at gmail.com  Tue Aug 30 06:30:21 2016
From: gershomb at gmail.com (Gershom B)
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 23:30:21 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] Is it reasonable to poll the community on
 this ML?
In-Reply-To: <CAAcnjCTsPDsBWjTRzq2dSVkkt0ednVngrXYvWF1-MiAdfkCBYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAcnjCQ7dC9Whk9LnzW0KgStJgVJU=zqff7N2R+xVTmWZhVrcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpHnzW-KoL-gVYcfsGFkHDVpOMC9DDSMK_OgTkJzMj+mxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAcnjCTsPDsBWjTRzq2dSVkkt0ednVngrXYvWF1-MiAdfkCBYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM8RHpGg5j68SKxnXc=-eqXoFcbfVFT-ap+p2sof9nYSbkqDVg@mail.gmail.com>

On August 30, 2016 at 2:13:22 AM, Paolo Giarrusso (p.giarrusso at gmail.com) wrote:
> It's also known that the committee's decision have been questioned for
> allegedly not listening to the community on this topic.
> I dislike the allegations (and find the tone unproductive), yet I
> think community input would be important and it's in the committee's
> best interest to both listen and be perceived as listening.

Yes! That’s why its so useful to have this mailing list where we can
all discuss things. Thank you for you input, by the way.

Best,
Gershom

From marlowsd at gmail.com  Tue Aug 30 10:23:33 2016
From: marlowsd at gmail.com (Simon Marlow)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 11:23:33 +0100
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>

The choice boils down to whether you want stack to manage your GHC
installation or not.

I personally find it distasteful.  This has been the biggest blocker for me
using stack, it wants to control more of my workflow than I want to give
it, leading to an overlap of responsibilities.  (I do use stack, but only
with external GHC installations, and I often get into a mess when it tries
to download another GHC)

Having said that, is it better for new users to delegate the GHC
installation to stack?  I don't know.  It certainly has the downside that
you can't just type "ghci" and get a prompt.

The world seems simpler when it consists of
- GHC installations
- build tools that use your GHC installations and manage local package
building

But when my build tool manages my GHC installations, there's now a layer of
abstraction in the way of GHC and I can't figure out how to interact
directly with GHC any more.  Also I can't use cabal (which I often do).

So, I'd argue for HP minimal to be the default download option.  By all
means recommend stack as the default build tool - I'm sure it's less
problematic for most people to get Stackage by default, and cabal isn't set
up to use Stackage out of the box.

Can't we get rid of HP Full?  I don't see a use for that any more.

Cheers
Simon


On 29 August 2016 at 16:29, Nicolas Wu <nicolas.wu at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I think having multiple options is confusing to beginners, and so I'd like
> to see a single download option on the download page.
>
> For me it's important that we have a way for beginners to use tools like
> ghc and ghci on the command line directly in order to run small throw-away
> programs.
>
> The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should be
> open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both
> have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other. The default
> installation should provide both of these as well as other tools core to
> building ghc.
>
> As such, I'm in favour of having the HP as the only option.
>
> Nick
>
> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:50 AM Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
>> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
>> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
>> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>>
>> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on
>> the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>>
>> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
>> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
>> least on windows it does).
>>
>> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
>> one is merely reasonable.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jason
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-community mailing list
>> Haskell-community at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
>
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From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Tue Aug 30 11:52:40 2016
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 13:52:40 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAcnjCSeZ7tfV11H95XVFRraQKP0udVxcce9o7SVOGT0byJP_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 August 2016 at 17:29, Nicolas Wu <nicolas.wu at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I think having multiple options is confusing to beginners, and so I'd like
> to see a single download option on the download page.
>
> For me it's important that we have a way for beginners to use tools like ghc
> and ghci on the command line directly in order to run small throw-away
> programs.

I'm frankly sympathetic to that argument, though one could argue
either way even on this front.

> The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should be
> open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both
> have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other.

I'm honestly confused what you're arguing. You say this decision isn't
for beginners, yet you propose offering the HP. So how should a
beginner install a package without first deciding whether to use
cabal-install or stack? Or can a beginner meaningfully be expected to
learn using both alternatives?

Also, do both tools have their merits *for beginners*? We're talking
of cabal as-is, not of the ongoing work on new-build.

> The default
> installation should provide both of these as well as other tools core to
> building ghc.
>
> As such, I'm in favour of having the HP as the only option.

-- 
Paolo G. Giarrusso - Ph.D. Student, Tübingen University
http://ps.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/team/giarrusso/

From gershomb at gmail.com  Tue Aug 30 13:17:30 2016
From: gershomb at gmail.com (Gershom B)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 09:17:30 -0400
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM8RHpEy5AQaROpsj6xQN5zZHKqc7Wvj_oB_fJEt7cT2Jo1ncg@mail.gmail.com>

On August 30, 2016 at 6:23:36 AM, Simon Marlow (marlowsd at gmail.com) wrote:
> > Can't we get rid of HP Full? I don't see a use for that any more.

I think it can be removed from a prominent spot in the downloads page.
There are a variety of cases where people still seem to prefer it for
some settings (especially those which may have limited ongoing network
access), despite being warned that it is not typically recommended, so
I think it makes sense to continue to provide it in some fashon,
albeit less prominent, for the time being.

If I can scrape the time together today I’ll try to pull together some
text for the whole downloads page to propose here for feedback, trying
to take this discussion into account.

—Gershom

From steven.syrek at gmail.com  Tue Aug 30 13:56:13 2016
From: steven.syrek at gmail.com (Steven J. Syrek)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 13:56:13 +0000
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAM8RHpEy5AQaROpsj6xQN5zZHKqc7Wvj_oB_fJEt7cT2Jo1ncg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpEy5AQaROpsj6xQN5zZHKqc7Wvj_oB_fJEt7cT2Jo1ncg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHrGWmqDgti1oCS_9hSAxRDTGbDiKc47p65qf6sgT3XdNdR_4g@mail.gmail.com>

alias ghci="stack ghci"

?
On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:17 AM Gershom B <gershomb at gmail.com> wrote:

> On August 30, 2016 at 6:23:36 AM, Simon Marlow (marlowsd at gmail.com) wrote:
> > > Can't we get rid of HP Full? I don't see a use for that any more.
>
> I think it can be removed from a prominent spot in the downloads page.
> There are a variety of cases where people still seem to prefer it for
> some settings (especially those which may have limited ongoing network
> access), despite being warned that it is not typically recommended, so
> I think it makes sense to continue to provide it in some fashon,
> albeit less prominent, for the time being.
>
> If I can scrape the time together today I’ll try to pull together some
> text for the whole downloads page to propose here for feedback, trying
> to take this discussion into account.
>
> —Gershom
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
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From adam at bergmark.nl  Tue Aug 30 14:15:16 2016
From: adam at bergmark.nl (Adam Bergmark)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 16:15:16 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACnqJZbTJOL0o9zVx7uN-LKDx2qywa8KTT2N1tFZa7dDRUCtMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Simon Marlow <marlowsd at gmail.com> wrote:

> The choice boils down to whether you want stack to manage your GHC
> installation or not.
>
> I personally find it distasteful.  This has been the biggest blocker for
> me using stack, it wants to control more of my workflow than I want to give
> it, leading to an overlap of responsibilities.
>




> (I do use stack, but only with external GHC installations, and I often get
> into a mess when it tries to download another GHC)
>

I have also been using stack with external GHCs up until now, but I have
never had this issue.


> Having said that, is it better for new users to delegate the GHC
> installation to stack?  I don't know.  It certainly has the downside that
> you can't just type "ghci" and get a prompt.
>
> The world seems simpler when it consists of
> - GHC installations
> - build tools that use your GHC installations and manage local package
> building
>
> But when my build tool manages my GHC installations, there's now a layer
> of abstraction in the way of GHC and I can't figure out how to interact
> directly with GHC any more.  Also I can't use cabal (which I often do).
>
> So, I'd argue for HP minimal to be the default download option.  By all
> means recommend stack as the default build tool - I'm sure it's less
> problematic for most people to get Stackage by default, and cabal isn't set
> up to use Stackage out of the box.
>
> Can't we get rid of HP Full?  I don't see a use for that any more.
>
> Cheers
> Simon
>
>
> On 29 August 2016 at 16:29, Nicolas Wu <nicolas.wu at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I think having multiple options is confusing to beginners, and so I'd
>> like to see a single download option on the download page.
>>
>> For me it's important that we have a way for beginners to use tools like
>> ghc and ghci on the command line directly in order to run small throw-away
>> programs.
>>
>> The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should
>> be open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both
>> have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other. The default
>> installation should provide both of these as well as other tools core to
>> building ghc.
>>
>> As such, I'm in favour of having the HP as the only option.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:50 AM Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
>>> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
>>> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
>>> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>>>
>>> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on
>>> the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
>>> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
>>> least on windows it does).
>>>
>>> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
>>> one is merely reasonable.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Haskell-community mailing list
>>> Haskell-community at haskell.org
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-community mailing list
>> Haskell-community at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>
>
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From sylvain at haskus.fr  Tue Aug 30 14:23:11 2016
From: sylvain at haskus.fr (Sylvain Henry)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 16:23:11 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4125e1be-858e-992c-cf91-0232184fcc5e@haskus.fr>

Stack ensures that the Haskell environment stays as specified. I find it 
very useful that GHC is included in this spec as we don't necessarily 
(want to) control the external installations. For example, when GHC 8.0 
has been pushed in the official repos of Arch Linux, stack just 
(re)installed the old one transparently and I didn't had to deal with it 
in my projects, nor rollback the Arch Linux package.

If new users try to use Haskell on such distros, they would better use 
stack with the latest LTS (implying GHC 7.10.3) than use GHC 8.0 from 
the official repo and deal with broken dependencies during the 
transition period. Moreover it is still possible to use "ghci" and "ghc" 
for small scripts and interactive sessions.

I agree that stack should be the recommended build tool, hence:
1) For the download page, I would say the "minimal install" (or "net 
install") is stack and should be on top.
2) On Linux distros where the HP is just a meta-package, as long as it 
brings the latest haskell-stack package, it shouldn't do no harm (but by 
default stack may not even use the provided GHC, depending on the 
current LTS and on the GHC version in the repo).
3) For bindist HPs, if the GHC version doesn't match the one used by 
stack, I don't see the point of including stack in the HP (or using the 
HP at all) because the first thing stack will do is to download another 
GHC. Maybe it would be possible to provide a default stack.yaml in the 
HP that would force stack to use a resolver associated with the provided 
GHC and libraries, in which case it would make more sense. Maybe bindist 
HPs could be automatically generated to match Stackage's LTS releases? A 
"HP Full" release could provide more packages from the LTS.
4) A "get-started" example using stack should be added on haskell.org

Cheers,
Sylvain


On 30/08/2016 12:23, Simon Marlow wrote:
> The choice boils down to whether you want stack to manage your GHC 
> installation or not.
>
> I personally find it distasteful.  This has been the biggest blocker 
> for me using stack, it wants to control more of my workflow than I 
> want to give it, leading to an overlap of responsibilities.  (I do use 
> stack, but only with external GHC installations, and I often get into 
> a mess when it tries to download another GHC)
>
> Having said that, is it better for new users to delegate the GHC 
> installation to stack?  I don't know.  It certainly has the downside 
> that you can't just type "ghci" and get a prompt.
>
> The world seems simpler when it consists of
> - GHC installations
> - build tools that use your GHC installations and manage local package 
> building
>
> But when my build tool manages my GHC installations, there's now a 
> layer of abstraction in the way of GHC and I can't figure out how to 
> interact directly with GHC any more.  Also I can't use cabal (which I 
> often do).
>
> So, I'd argue for HP minimal to be the default download option. By all 
> means recommend stack as the default build tool - I'm sure it's less 
> problematic for most people to get Stackage by default, and cabal 
> isn't set up to use Stackage out of the box.
>
> Can't we get rid of HP Full?  I don't see a use for that any more.
>
> Cheers
> Simon
>
>
> On 29 August 2016 at 16:29, Nicolas Wu <nicolas.wu at gmail.com 
> <mailto:nicolas.wu at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hello,
>
>     I think having multiple options is confusing to beginners, and so
>     I'd like to see a single download option on the download page.
>
>     For me it's important that we have a way for beginners to use
>     tools like ghc and ghci on the command line directly in order to
>     run small throw-away programs.
>
>     The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies
>     should be open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using
>     stack or cabal: both have their merits, and I don't want to push
>     one over the other. The default installation should provide both
>     of these as well as other tools core to building ghc.
>
>     As such, I'm in favour of having the HP as the only option.
>
>     Nick
>
>     On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:50 AM Jason Dagit <dagitj at gmail.com
>     <mailto:dagitj at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Hello all,
>
>         I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the
>         Downloads page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads
>         <https://www.haskell.org/downloads>) is deprecated and "dead".
>         This creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested
>         way to get haskell immediately tells the user it's dead.
>
>         I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer
>         ASAP on the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full
>         variants.
>
>         Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we
>         list the HP above other methods as even the minimal HP
>         installer ships with stack (at least on windows it does).
>
>         Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and
>         the second one is merely reasonable.
>
>         Thanks,
>         Jason
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Haskell-community mailing list
>         Haskell-community at haskell.org
>         <mailto:Haskell-community at haskell.org>
>         http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>         <http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Haskell-community mailing list
>     Haskell-community at haskell.org <mailto:Haskell-community at haskell.org>
>     http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
>     <http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community


From chris at kahn.pro  Tue Aug 30 14:23:31 2016
From: chris at kahn.pro (Chris Kahn)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:23:31 -0700
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAM8RHpEy5AQaROpsj6xQN5zZHKqc7Wvj_oB_fJEt7cT2Jo1ncg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpEy5AQaROpsj6xQN5zZHKqc7Wvj_oB_fJEt7cT2Jo1ncg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1472567011.341677.710357057.13A93BED@webmail.messagingengine.com>

A good downloads page should have two purposes. First and foremost it
should highlight "the" one recommended way to use Haskell. The current
page is very confusing. It should be an obvious choice that satisfies
newbies and the majority of jobbing Haskellers. It's the method that we
want to build the community around. It's the method that changed my
adventures getting started in Haskell from incredibly frustrating, to a
really easy and pleasant experience. And I think it's abundantly clear
that this is Stack.

Now it's great that everybody has different workflows, some people have
Cabal-only workflows, some people need the full Haskell Platform, some
people just want the latest binary X, etc. You're not the audience of
the prominent button at the top of the downloads page and you're
experienced enough to know how to find what you want. For these needs,
the downloads page should serve its second purposes, having a list or
table below the fold, where everyone can find these different packages
that they need to download, but where it does not distract or clutter
from the primary message.

And the case mentioned about newbies buying a book that uses GHCi,
shouldn't this book explain how to install GHCi and possibly include a
binary? And do we think so poorly of Haskell newcomers that we cannot
simply explain the command is "stack ghci" instead of just "ghci"? Or
the Stack installer automatically place a ghci script that secretly uses
Stack? My point is that I think this problem can be solved without
screwing up the downloads page.

That's my opinion, anyway!
Chris



On Tue, Aug 30, 2016, at 06:17 AM, Gershom B wrote:
> On August 30, 2016 at 6:23:36 AM, Simon Marlow (marlowsd at gmail.com)
> wrote:
> > > Can't we get rid of HP Full? I don't see a use for that any more.
> 
> I think it can be removed from a prominent spot in the downloads page.
> There are a variety of cases where people still seem to prefer it for
> some settings (especially those which may have limited ongoing network
> access), despite being warned that it is not typically recommended, so
> I think it makes sense to continue to provide it in some fashon,
> albeit less prominent, for the time being.
> 
> If I can scrape the time together today I’ll try to pull together some
> text for the whole downloads page to propose here for feedback, trying
> to take this discussion into account.
> 
> —Gershom
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-community mailing list
> Haskell-community at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community

From p.giarrusso at gmail.com  Tue Aug 30 15:24:24 2016
From: p.giarrusso at gmail.com (Paolo Giarrusso)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 17:24:24 +0200
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
Message-ID: <CAAcnjCRTKq9-FvHdyJcFvy1P6KSyoCZvr9vO786iqZWnAX2OPw@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 August 2016 at 15:56, Steven J. Syrek <steven.syrek at gmail.com> wrote:
> alias ghci="stack ghci"
>
> ?

stack ghci translates to cabal repl which interprets your whole
project. No biggie on small projects, but annoying on big ones.
But the correct alias is closer to

alias ghci='stack exec -- ghci'

Though you *could* argue this is irrelevant to newbies.

--
Paolo G. Giarrusso - Ph.D. Student, Tübingen University
http://ps.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/team/giarrusso/

From gershomb at gmail.com  Tue Aug 30 16:12:48 2016
From: gershomb at gmail.com (Gershom B)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:12:48 -0400
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAM8RHpEy5AQaROpsj6xQN5zZHKqc7Wvj_oB_fJEt7cT2Jo1ncg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANsrgPJXuGDahmat65xcD2L34W7Y5=wpm2KxwmGbTf44=w2HcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM8RHpEy5AQaROpsj6xQN5zZHKqc7Wvj_oB_fJEt7cT2Jo1ncg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM8RHpF5fo4Mcju6F4NWH2PuJJRzg_eXDHFr-zd2ntU=A76+1w@mail.gmail.com>

And... before I had the chance to pull something together, someone
else jumped in and made this very nice proposal on the website
tracker:

https://github.com/haskell-infra/hl/issues/176

That seems like a good basis for discussion :-)

(Note that this presupposes is to renaming minimal to the Haskell
Toolchain, as per the discussion at
https://github.com/haskell/haskell-platform/issues/250)

--Gershom

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Gershom B <gershomb at gmail.com> wrote:
> On August 30, 2016 at 6:23:36 AM, Simon Marlow (marlowsd at gmail.com) wrote:
>> > Can't we get rid of HP Full? I don't see a use for that any more.
>
> I think it can be removed from a prominent spot in the downloads page. There are a variety of cases where people still seem to prefer it for some settings (especially those which may have limited ongoing network access), despite being warned that it is not typically recommended, so I think it makes sense to continue to provide it in some fashon, albeit less prominent, for the time being.
>
> If I can scrape the time together today I’ll try to pull together some text for the whole downloads page to propose here for feedback, trying to take this discussion into account.
>
> —Gershom

From simonpj at microsoft.com  Tue Aug 30 22:39:08 2016
From: simonpj at microsoft.com (Simon Peyton Jones)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 22:39:08 +0000
Subject: [Haskell-community] Resignation
In-Reply-To: <CAJumaK8p+cHyTAVtxYPpkjnwPGQHNbWRBzKjHOq_FpDNydxafw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJumaK8p+cHyTAVtxYPpkjnwPGQHNbWRBzKjHOq_FpDNydxafw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM5PR21MB065198B428F1D2AD68C09264ADE00@DM5PR21MB0651.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>

Edward

Your leadership of the Summer of Haskell has been fantastic.  It would not have happened without you.  Thank you so much --- you are a star.

Please do stay with the Core Libraries Committee.   A group like that only functions when it is actively led, to bring discussions to a conclusions and articulate decisions.  Thank you for that too.

Simon

PS: Do you have a successor for Summer of Code?  Is there a danger that, leaderless, it just won’t happen next year?  Anyone interested in volunteering to take up the mantle?

From: Haskell-community [mailto:haskell-community-bounces at haskell.org] On Behalf Of Edward Kmett
Sent: 29 August 2016 06:43
To: haskell-community at haskell.org
Subject: [Haskell-community] Resignation

I'm officially resigning from the haskell.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fhaskell.org&data=01%7c01%7csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7cbc33408c07434dddb90008d3cfcf5c84%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=M2yHQ7aHB6CJfzs%2futbAaUHCic0zeGWOfVEpOcs4yKE%3d> committee effective immediately after the end of the Summer of Haskell.

To those of you on the committee, I apologize for abandoning you.

The reason I joined and have remained on the committee for the past several years is entirely to deal with the needs of the Summer of Code, both financially and administratively. It has provided me a way to give back to a community that has been so incredibly good to me.

When Galois managed our finances, someone had to deal with it. When we moved into SPI, it ironically started taking more effort. When we formed a non-profit in December things started looking up in terms of administrative overhead, but then we crushingly weren't accepted into the program this year.

In the wake of that I was somehow able to raise funding and wrangle us around $40,000 in sponsorship to fund eight students to work on Haskell for the summer. The outpouring of goodwill there was tangible. Those projects are wrapping up nicely now.

This part of my role within the committee has been as life affirming and wonderful as anything I've ever done.

However, the job is coming at an ever greater personal cost that I'm simply unwilling to continue to bear. My wife has come to dread the "there's someone wrong on the internet" moments, and I've come to realize it isn't fair to her -- I simply find myself spread too thin.

I shall continue to serve on the Core Libraries Committee, as I do continue to care deeply about the structure of the language we all love, if not so much the tooling around it, and I am willing to put in the time to on that front where I feel much more strongly about the issues at hand and have what I hope is a nuanced opinion to offer. Ultimately, the barbs thrown around, say, during the Foldable/Traversable Proposal, while heated, never felt personal, merely rational disagreement between well meaning parties with different priorities.

I care a great deal about our community; it was ultimately Cale and the rest of the folks in #haskell channel that lured me in at first, not any of the technical merits of the language. Those only took hold of me later on, but without that comfortable environment never would have had a chance to set.

I do not care enough about the contents of a web page to let my health, relationships, productivity and home life suffer further. I hope that by stepping back I can continue to retain or perhaps regain some of those friendships that recent events have strained.


--Edward Kmett
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From nicolas.wu at gmail.com  Wed Aug 31 21:41:59 2016
From: nicolas.wu at gmail.com (Nicolas Wu)
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 21:41:59 +0000
Subject: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page
In-Reply-To: <CAAcnjCSeZ7tfV11H95XVFRraQKP0udVxcce9o7SVOGT0byJP_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ-DSyzN40sE+-T-31JhgiHmk_ruAAzNQKzYwkJTd5_=9T3-Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFBp9RkbGwW4MUPrcx=J+m3Toh-M=gj2xOaq9WYf4T1R+impPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAcnjCSeZ7tfV11H95XVFRraQKP0udVxcce9o7SVOGT0byJP_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFBp9R=JeBKsSwtFs8WCiT5cqzgO6de3cr5_GdjaoCKtK_po4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Paolo,

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:53 PM Paolo Giarrusso <p.giarrusso at gmail.com>
wrote:

> > The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should
> be
> > open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both
> > have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other.
>
> I'm honestly confused what you're arguing. You say this decision isn't
> for beginners, yet you propose offering the HP. So how should a
> beginner install a package without first deciding whether to use
> cabal-install or stack? Or can a beginner meaningfully be expected to
> learn using both alternatives?
>

Sorry for not being clear, my bad. Hopefully I can clarify and elaborate a
bit more.

I think a beginner doesn't usually make the choice of how to use
GHC/stack/cabal by themselves; they are usually being instructed by someone
(or a resource) that has decided that for them. On that front I don't think
there's a singular best way to approach this; there's diversity in the way
people approach teaching and that's fine and healthy, there's also
diversity in the way people learn and the goals they have with the language
and that's fine and healthy too. We should be supporting people who want to
learn the language as well as people who want to contribute to teaching. We
should respect diversity in those roles; if someone wants their students to
use only stack then by all means they can do so, that shouldn't stop others
from using ghc or ghci directly.

For instance, if a beginner is just trying to run small examples they see
on a blog, then maybe all they need is a call to ghci. If they're learning
about making a simple binary they might want ghc. If they want to have a
whole managed project, perhaps they're after either stack or cabal. The
point is that they're usually guided by something, and those guides do
differ on what they prefer and recommend. The default download should
easily support these different modes of learning and teaching.


> Also, do both tools have their merits *for beginners*? We're talking
> of cabal as-is, not of the ongoing work on new-build.
>

I'm talking about having a default that bundles tools like ghc, cabal, and
stack, since these are the main tools our community has for compiling and
executing Haskell code. I don't want to force people into one of
these--whether that be students or educators. In all cases the default
download recommendation should support all of these since they are the
mainstream tools we use. To avoid confusion I think there should be only
one recommended option on the main download page (and here the HP minimal
seems to satisfy this, and stack seems to preclude this). The download page
should also have a link to other resources (such as the HP Full, stack
only, and other distributions like Haskell for Mac) on another page.

Since there seems to be confusion about how the committee comes to a
consensus I should note that at this point I'm only speaking for myself
here. This is just my recommendation, and I'm open and willing to listen to
other views before considering what I think is best. I am not usually
overtly vocal in these discussions, but I do read what is said and form my
own opinions.

Best wishes,

Nick
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