DDC compiler and effects; better than Haskell? (was Re:
sebastian.sylvan at gmail.com
Fri Aug 14 23:07:10 EDT 2009
On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 3:55 AM, John A. De Goes <john at n-brain.net> wrote:
> On Aug 14, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Sebastian Sylvan wrote:
> But you can't! I can easily envisage a scenario where there's a link
>> between two pieces of data in two different files, where it's okay if the
>> data in file A is "newer" (in a versioning sense, not a timestamp sense)
>> than the corresponding data in file B, but the opposite doesn't hold. So if
>> you have another program writing that data it will write first to A, and
>> then to B. The program reading this *must* then read the files in the
>> correct order (B then A, to ensure the data from A is always newer or at the
>> same "version" as the data in B).
> That's nonsense. Because what happens if your program reads A while the
> other program is writing to A
Depends on the file system. For example, the file could be locked so you
would just block. Or the file system might be transactional. I used files as
an example, the point wasn't to get bogged down in exact semantics of
concurrent access - assume all reads/writes are atomic (or can be viewed as
such from the apps POV) for the purposes of discussion.
> , or reads B just after the other program has written to A, but before it
> has written to B?
This is precisely the scenario that would be legal in that case. You'd end
up with data from A that's newer than B, which we said was okay, but for
some app-specific reason the opposite is *not* okay. In order for you not to
crash you *have* to make sure you read from B first, because otherwise you
could read from A right before it's updated, and then read B right after
both A and B have been updated which means B is now newer than A and your
program goes boom.
The point is that the ordering of reads are not arbitrary.
> As I said before, you cannot make any guarantees in the presence of
> interference, _with or without_ commuting.
That's a separate issue. The problem is that if you *do* depend on outside
"interference", then the sequence of operations matters.
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