[Haskell-cafe] Re: Wikipedia on first-class object

[Bulat Ziganshin]

Hello Achim,

Saturday, December 29, 2007, 10:12:21 PM, you wrote:

>> >> Interesting... So you're claiming that humans have powers of
>> >> deduction beyond what computers possess? ;-)
>> >> 
>> > They would be programming us if otherwise, wouldn't they?
>> 
>> oh, well. God created humans, humans created computers. God has
>> created our programs (psychics), we does the same for computers
>> 
> If you find the one who brought the topic to god, shoot him.

i don't know who was created humans. if you will find someone who says
that he definitely know - pray to him, he should be a God :)
meanwhile, i will use term God because it's not worse than any else :)

> At least
> if HE isn't just the universe.

great! what is the difference between YOUR terms God and universe? i
think you believe that God means "having free will" and universe
should obey to some (physical) laws. and now is The Question - how you
can prove that universe obey to some set of laws and doesn't behave at
free will? i contend that in order to prove it you should check result
if EVERY action in the universe during all its lifetime. you cannot.
so lack of God is just the assumption which cannot be proved, you just
believe in it and shout out any heretics - it's natural for any
religion ;)

>  The main difference is whether something
> can program itself, which puts computers right next to a mechanical
> clock

well, my computer programs itself each time i use compiler. can you
program itself? if you believe that you can, try to program himself to
say "hello world" as many times as i press your nose :)))

if you succeed, try to program yourself to take off your clothes and
go to a street. impossible. you was programmed by society to never,
never do it. likewise, you was programmed by Nature to not hold hot
objects and so on.

>> but what's a programming? without me, computer will never print "hello
>> world". but without him, i will never write this letter - only its
>> ability to easily transfer mail between continents forced me to do it
>> 
> Encoding behaviour information in a way that gets executed by an
> entity. That enough?

where execution method is defined by internals of entity? :)  so
when computer displayed your letter, he programmed me to make this
exact answer? yes, this program was specific to my internal structure,
but it was the program. and you was programmed by my letter to write
exactly the answer you have wrote

i still believe that humans are God's compilers of his programs to
the language of physical particles. one of God's idea was computers
and he at the last end programmed humans to build them. great work!

>> next. can you compile this "hello world" program down to assembler?
>>
> Yes. Definitely. At least if you don't make me abandon the kernel and
> talk to the hardware itself and would remember what int20 function
> write was.

congratulations: you are about as smart as computer! :)  there are not
many people that can be compared with them ;)


> Try writing a program that makes me say "hello world" as many times as
> you press my nose.

it's easy, really easy if human is programmed from scratch. you have
already programmed to say "hello" as the answer to many various
signals - giving you a hand, saying "hello", looking into your eyes

moreover, your Programmers was left many open-doors that may be used
to reprogram you in any particular way. i can kill you if you will not
do what he stated, can put you into prison, can give you money or can
satisfy you (well, if you are blue ;)

well, i personally can't do it, but it means that *i* am a limited
Programmer, not that you are bad Computer. you *can* be programmed and
you really programmed like all the people around. you was learnt how
to behave in each situation, how to solve problems, what should be your
goals and what you should never do. i already said that Nature created
more and more animals which was computers limited to survival until it
was created *universal* computer which may be programmed to solve any
problem and civilization use humans in exactly this way. civilization
programs people in the way it needs and they execute its program. but
because this computer was created on the element base of animal, it is
rather strange. in order to make you write program, civilization
should let you believe that you will get instead food, heat, relations
- all the things that was need for animal. it's the very strange way
of programming, but nevertheless it works. are you ever seen trained
animal that does all his tricks but get his reward only once a month?
look at the mirror (as i do :)

>> humans often says about things that they can do but computer can't but
>> they forget that computers was created exactly to do things that we
>> can't. billion of computations per second is beyond our abilities
>> 
> Nope, they aren't. Try teaching a computer to catch a ball, you'll be
> surprised how many numbers you can crunch.

my english isn't good enough, probably you are saying that there
are still things that people does better than computers. yes, it's the
only reason why civilization keeps such inefficient mechanisms. but
you should agree that it already instructed us to overcome such
limitation. cultivate your replacement by your own hands - is it
better than saying something each time your nose depressed? ;)

btw, i forget to say that you programmed against pressure to your nose
and this fact also doesn't have any rationale :D


>> don't take into account that human by itself, at the moment of birth
>> doesn't know anything about mathematics and even can't speak - he is
>> programmed by society to acquire these skills
>> 
> Kind of, no. The programming to learn to survive in its surroundings
> and to reproduce is in the genes.

yes, humans are also programmed by natural selection. after birth we
are programmed by our society. are you really believe that behavior of
fascists was 100% programmed in their genes and was superior for their
survival and reproduction? ;)  only fascist can think this way and i
100% sure that you was programmed to avoid thinking about himself as
fascist in any circumstance! ;)

btw, are you read "1984"? hi author says about some methods of
programming humans in totalitarian societies but really these methods
are common for any one. double-thinking and self-stop are two of them.
self-stop means that society prohibits you to think about some
things and above i probably forced you to self-stop yourself ;)


>> so, computers are definitely more advanced devices - they was created
>> to. we (humanity) just don't yet finished development of the program
>> which at some moment will make them able to further develop itself
>> without our help. if you believe that human is superior to computer
>> you should also believe that bacterium is superior to human
>> 
> I think we are superior to bacteria, yes, although you might argue that
> amoeba are practically immortal, and, as cockroaches, survived for a
> far longer time with nearly no change in their genes.

what you mean by "superior"? which relation immortality has to
usefulness for society?

what i mean here is what animals was initial models before Human as
created. and from this fact you draw consequence that Human is
superior to animals. well, there is next model - computer, even better
one in solving logical problems. but from this fact you draw exactly
the opposite consequence - that Humans, used to produce computers, are
superior to them. it seems that you will make the same conclusion from
any fact. you was *programmed*, fixed to make this conclusion in any
case


> It's a bit like with kids: As long as you don't want them to be
> independent and reward them for it, they won't be.

> Unlike kids, though, computers don't have the possibility to look at
> the next computer and compute something along the lines of "hey, I like
> his mmap much more than my implementation, I'm not obeying my
> programmer any more."

well, i have already described this standard catch - here you compare
some particular computer with some ideal man. but in REALITY
1) computer can be easily learnt (programmed) to do this
2) most people (well, all or almost all) are really cannot change
their ideas without external pressure. are you really developed all
these ideas by yourself? or just read some books and take these ideas
without any real check? how, for example, about the idea of God? of
free will? ;)

> It's really comparing touring machines to mere evolutionary reprogrammed
> meta-programming neural nets featuring a few magnitudes more synapses
> than there are atoms in the universe, that is. Apples and bananas might
> work in a fruit salad, but... humans have a tendency to believe
> everything they don't understand is superior, dumb or nuts, even if it's
> themselves.

don't understood your idea (my english is too bad)


-- 
Best regards,
 Bulat                            mailto:Bulat.Ziganshin at gmail.com