[Haskell-cafe] RE: [Haskell] Monadification as a refactoring [was:
Mixing monadicand non-monadic functions]
ralfla at microsoft.com
Sat Sep 10 23:29:28 EDT 2005
[I am trying to drag this voluminous thread to cafe.]
Jeremy Gibbons mentioned Martin Erwig and Deling Ren's paper on
monadification. Very useful, indeed -- also with regard to the question
you seem to ponder about; also see here for an early take on
monadification, if you like http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ralf/sfp99/ and
more recently, an interesting use case for it:
I disagree with you: Monadification transformations are certainly
reversible. I *do* realize that you were not talking about plain
reversibility but rather "a refactorization should have an inverse which
commutes with simple edits".
Let's talk about plain reversibility first.
So you go from a non-monadic program to a monadic program.
What monad do you choose initially?
You use the identity monad, at least conceptually.
(Making the monadic parametric, if intended, can be seen as an extra
generalization step. To use such a generalized program, you would still
need to commit to a specific monad eventually at a higher level of the
program. So for simplicity it makes sense to start from a monadified
program that uses the identity monad. A single monadification
refactoring is not enough anyhow, if you care about monad-related
program edits in a broader scope. You would also need extra refactorings
and refinements for extending and reducing the monad through symbolic
monad transformations and a few others, I presume.)
Inlining the identity monad operations plus some bits of beta reduction
get you back to the original program. (There are some subtle technical
issues. For instance, getting rid of a monad, even if it is not used
through actions, may still be difficult due to strictness/bottom lifting
issues. See such details in Martin's paper.)
How do go beyond plain reversibility for monadification?
Your examples of refactorings were not fair. They did not admit that
undoing refactorings *after program edits* is a problem for *many*
established refactorings. Monadification is not really special in so
far. (It is perhaps special in so far that it is generally a rather
involved refactoring, compared to extract/inline method.)
You mention (i) "extract function" followed by (ii) "edit function"
followed by (iii) "inline function". (iii) is the inverse refactoring
for (i). Now try this (iii), (ii') edit inlined code, (i). How do you
know what to extract in the last step? How do you know where to extract
(if you changed only n out of m inlining locations)? AND SO ON. These
are all not insurmountable problems but they are quite similar to the
"challenges" you run into once you want to inverse monadification.
*As long as we keep the notion of "edits" vague, as you did, it
shouldn't be surprising that reversibility after edits is not clear
Obviously, some edits can be handled by de-monadification. As long as
the edits do not start to commit to monadic style by means of engaging
into a specific non-identity monad *and* using monadic actions, then it
is safe to exclude monadic style again. (Making this precise and really
*safe* is difficult enough.)
But even once you start to use commit/engage, after monadification,
there are ways to eliminate it again on the basis of special treatments
(Think of refactorings that extract or inline monadic style for specific
monads; for instance state passing through extra argument and result
components.) Also, you may reduce the amount of monadic style. HaRe
efforts are addressing some concepts like this, I guess.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: haskell-bounces at haskell.org [mailto:haskell-bounces at haskell.org]
> Behalf Of Frederik Eaton
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:25 PM
> To: Claus Reinke
> Cc: haskell at haskell.org
> Subject: Re: [Haskell] Monadification as a refactoring [was: Mixing
> monadicand non-monadic functions]
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2005 at 12:55:15AM +0100, Claus Reinke wrote:
> > life is funny, isn't it? so many people so eagerly
> lazily, in my case
> > discussing conversion between non-monadic and monadic code,
> I'm trying to discuss a new syntax, not code transformations. I agree
> that the two are related. I'm interested in the latter, but I don't
> understand it very well. I think of refactoring as an operation that
> takes source code to source code, i.e. unlike most operations done on
> source code, refactoring produces output which is meant to be edited
> by humans. Is this correct? But if it is, doesn't it mean that one
> would like refactorizations to have some ill-defined "reversibility"
> a refactorization should have an inverse which commutes with simple
> For instance, if I (a) rename a variable, and then (b) introduce a new
> reference to the renamed variable somewhere, I can later decide to
> change the name back, reverting (a), without losing the work I did in
> the meantime in (b). I can do this by applying another rename
> operation, which will also affect the new reference.
> Or, if I (a) take a bit of code and remove it to a separate function,
> and then (b) modify the body of that function, I can later decide to
> inline the function back into the one place which calls it, thus
> reverting (a), without losing the modification done in (b).
> Yet, I don't see how the "monadification" operations you propose could
> have this property. They are certainly code transformations! But they
> seem irreversible - once I (a) apply your transformations and (b) edit
> the output, I can't revert (a) without losing the work done in (b).
> Changes to the code become tightly coupled, design becomes less
> > yet when we asked for your opinions and suggestions on this very
> > topic only a short while ago, we got a total of 4 (four) replies -
> > all quite useful, mind you, so we were grateful, but still one
> > wonders.. we might have assumed that not many people cared after
> > all:
> > http://www.haskell.org//pipermail/haskell/2005-March/015557.html
> It might have been more useful to ask for survey replies to be sent to
> the list. Often the various opinions of a large number of people can
> be compressed to a few representative positions. But if respondents
> can't see what opinions have been expressed so far, then this
> time-saving compression becomes impossible. That is just my opinion.
> > shall I assume that all participants in this discussion have joined
> > the Haskell parade since then, and have proceeded rapidly to the
> > problems of monadic lifting?-) in which case I'd invite you to have
> > a look at that survey and the papers mentioned.
> I should do that, yes!
> It's just that I was a bit late, having misplaced my trumpet.
> > > > I thought the easy answer would be to inject non-monadic values
> > > > monad (assuming one already rejiggered things to do automatic
> > I'd phrase it slightly differently: what (I think) one wants are
> implicit coercions
> > between monadic and non-monadic types of expressions, where the
> > lift non-monadic values into the monad in question, while embedding
> > computations in the current monad to get a non-monadic result if
> that is
> > needed (although one might think of the latter as partially lifting
> > that needs the non-monadic result).
> > only I wouldn't want those implicit coercions to be introduced
> > programmers explicitly ask for that (one usually only converts code
> > non-monadic to monadic once, and while the details of that step
> > be tiresome and in need of tool-support, the step itself should be
> > - see my comment on (2) below).
> > > Note that in (a), "pure" values are never used where monads are
> > > for, only the other way around.
> > that is probably where some would beg to differ - if you lift
> > why not lift values as well?
> Oh, one should do both, I was just giving a case where value-lifting
> didn't happen, as a counterexample to Aaron's viewpoint.
> > > I think that supporting syntax (a) for semantics (b) should be a
> > > feature because: (1) it is (usually) obvious what (a) means; (2)
> > > eliminates the single-use variable 'v' - single-use variables like
> > > this occur a lot in monadic Haskell code, and I think they make it
> > > harder to read and write; (3) it would support the math-like
> > > that I presented in my original message.
> > (1) "(usually) obvious" is tech-speak for "(perhaps) possible to
> > figure out, though probably not uniquely determined"?-)
> > when mathematicians abuse notation in the "obvious" way,
> > there is usually an assumed context in which the intended
> > abuses are clearly defined (if not, there is another context
> > in which the "obvious" things will go unexpectedly awry).
> > (2) the nice thing about Haskell is that it *distinguishes* between
> > monadic and non-monadic computations, and between evaluation
> > and execution of monadic computations. if you want everything
> > mixed into one soup, ML might be your language of choice
> > (http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=178047 , if I recall
> > see the paper discussed in
> > http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/view/552
> > for one application that demonstrates the power/danger of such
> > implicit monads).
> > (3) using math-like syntax for lifted expressions is common practice
> > in some families of Haskell-DSELs, eg. Conal Elliot's Fran. As
> > pointed out, the predefined class-hierarchy is not really
> > for such endeavours, but if one isn't picky, one may ignore
> > not used.. the "trick" is to lift even constants, so when you
> > to applications, all components are already lifted, and lifting
> > arithmetic works out fine (Boolean operations are another
> > note, however, that the resulting language, while looking
> > mathematically pure and permitting concise expression of complex
> > circumstances, may not have the reasoning properties you
> At this point I think we have to look at more examples. I'm not
> convinced that my position is right, but I'm not convinced that that
> it is wrong either. I just think it's promising, based on my
> experience. If I were a better person, and had more free time, I would
> work on producing examples and working things out myself, and perhaps
> write a paper or something.
> Of course, experienced people are disagreeing with me, so maybe I
> should just accept their good judgment! In any case, I'm afraid I
> don't have much more to contribute, beyond the idea itself.
> > > It might be hard to modify the type checker to get it to work, but
> > > think it is possible, and I see no reason not to be as general as
> > > possible.
> > here I'd agree, although in contrast to you, I'd be talking about a
> > complex refactoring under programmer control, not about an
> > invoked collection of coercions. I played with that idea after
> > Erwig visited our refactoring project in March, and got to a
> > type-coercion inference system for a very simple functional
> > because I found the situation with various existing and, as
> > pointed out, apparently unrelated monadification algorithms
> > apart from the various styles of monadification, which we'd like
> > to permit, and have the programmer select, e.g., by type
> > there is the slight problem that there are an unbounded number of
> > different monadifications (more if one wants to keep annotations to
> > a minimum), so one needs a sensible bound (one that does not
> > exclude any of the alternatives one might want). one also might
> > want to be able to choose between the alternatives (or tune the
> > system so that taking the first choice works out ok most of the
> > time). oh, and it shouldn't be too inefficient, and it is really a
> > to re-implement a type-system just to add a few coercion rules to
> > it (which is why I haven't extended my mini fpl to Haskell yet..).
> Well, I've said a little about why I don't like irreversible
> refactoring. I've been reading "Notes on the Synthesis of Form" by
> Christopher Alexander, I think this has helped me understand the
> process of design in more abstract terms, if you want a reference.
> I think the source code of a program should be as close to its initial
> specification as possible. The goal should be to make it as easy to
> read and modify as it was to write. However, if the design is spread
> out over write/test/debug cycles, as is often the case in interpreted
> languages such as perl; or refactor cycles, as you seem to be
> proposing; then a lot of the decisions and rationales which determine
> that design will not be visible in the final version of the code -
> rather, they will be stored in the succession of modifications which
> have been applied to create this final version. But these
> modifications are, as it were, difficult to go back and modify. The
> more a program is produced through a process of accretion or
> evolution, the more tightly coupled various aspects of its design will
> be, and the more difficult it will be to change any one of them.
> Even if most of the design decisions are good ones, eventually the
> number of unfixable bad decisions will grow until continued
> development of a particular component becomes untenable. This might
> happen at a function level or a module level or a program level - but
> in any case I think the development style in question should be
> avoided where possible, and made avoidable where feasible.
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