[ghc-steering-committee] Please review "Visible 'forall' in types of terms" #281
Simon Peyton Jones
simonpj at microsoft.com
Wed Nov 25 13:47:03 UTC 2020
Back to the main point, it seems to be fairly consensual, right now, that #281 doesn't seem to have found the sweet spot which would make it work quite right
I don’t think I agree. I think it’s close to working right. See my recent comment<https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/281#issuecomment-733715402> on the proposal.
Simon
From: Spiwack, Arnaud <arnaud.spiwack at tweag.io>
Sent: 25 November 2020 12:13
To: Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
Cc: Joachim Breitner <mail at joachim-breitner.de>; ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org
Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] Please review "Visible 'forall' in types of terms" #281
Back to the main point, it seems to be fairly consensual, right now, that #281 doesn't seem to have found the sweet spot which would make it work quite right. Not yet. I basically agree with the points raised so far. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm sympathetic with the goals, but unconvinced by the details. Is there a committee member which disagrees with the emerging consensus?
On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 1:15 PM Simon Peyton Jones via ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org<mailto:ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org>> wrote:
* Having two name-spaces appears to be The Major Obstacle towards making
satisfying incremental progress in the direction of dependent types.
* So perhaps we should have an extension -XSingleNameSpace that has a single
name space, with all the consequences that would entail (like changing the
syntax of tuple and list types).
* Then further extensions toward dependent types could require -XSingleNameSpace.
If you don't want that, you don't get the new goodies. There would be no
expectation that a dependent-types extension should fit well with the
double-name-space situation; maybe the combination is actually disallowed.
* Or maybe the combination is allowed, but a bit clunky. For example, suppose
a library defines f :: forall a -> blah
Then, in a module with classic-Haskell name spaces, you'd have to say
f (type Int)
and not (f Int), forcibly setting the namespace.
It'd be good to have this conversation on GitHub, and perhaps #378 is the place to do that?
Simon
| -----Original Message-----
| From: ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee-bounces at haskell.org<mailto:ghc-steering-committee-bounces at haskell.org>> On
| Behalf Of Joachim Breitner
| Sent: 23 November 2020 08:10
| To: ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org<mailto:ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org>
| Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] Please review "Visible 'forall' in
| types of terms" #281
|
| Hi,
|
| Richard roughly says what is my sentiment too… I’d phrase it like this:
|
| It seems that #281 would be rather straight forward, if it were not for the
| fact that this is the first (of many?) extensions that allow types and terms
| to occur in the same syntactic spot. So far, when mentally parsing a
| program, I know where to look for types, and where to look for terms. #281
| breaks that, and has to come up with lots of subtle rules, that make me
| uneasy.
|
| But that's not really #281’s fault – assuming we want to head towards
| Dependent Haskell with a unified namespace, it’s a problem that needs to be
| solved! But better have that discussion with a focus on that problem, and
| have a plan that works in general. Maybe #270 is the right place to have
| that discussion.
|
| My impression is that all (most?) of
| those working towards a Dependent Haskell world assume that we get a unified
| namespace with no punning, and all complexity (`type` sigils, `type`-
| qualified imports) is around compatibility with modules that use punning,
| with the hope that this is rare. Few are proposing to stick to a world of
| two namespaces and punning and make _that_ ergonomic. Is that impression
| correct?
|
| Do local modules (#283) alleviate the punning problem a bit? Given `data T =
| T`, could we make it so that T is the type and T.T the constructor?
|
| But this really isn't the right place to throw out shower ideas. I wonder if
| it would help if someone could maintain a wiki page with an overview of all
| the numerous proposals and ideas thrown around to tackle the problem about
| how we get from a world of two name spaces and punning to one with one
| namespaces and no punning.
|
|
| As for #281, unless I misjudge the urgency of that change, I’d be in favor
| to park it until we have a good, generally applicable plan for mixing terms
| and types.
|
| Cheers,
| Joachim
|
|
|
|
| Am Montag, den 23.11.2020, 03:35 +0000 schrieb Richard Eisenberg:
| > My silence on this proposal is because I want to accept, but I agree with
| Iavor that it's become too baroque. My #378 is, in part, an attempt to
| clarify our stance on these sorts of features so that we can take a stab at
| simplifying #281 by making it less expressive.
| >
| > So, I guess my vote is to delay decision on this proposal until we have
| one for #378 (or #270, which can also help shed light on this one).
| >
| > Responding directly to Alejandro's concerns here: I actually don't really
| understand. I think (1) is decided by
| https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com
| %2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc-proposals%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2Fproposals%2F0081-forall-
| arrow.rst&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40microsoft.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C4207fbf0e7954c9d357a08d8913b8655%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637419032137697928%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=AjdCCMuV%2Bar%2FJ7RQoKRuznbzR6cqcZ7f3t%2BmK7VcYqY%3D&reserved=0>%7Ccba94a6d611e470021260
| 8d88f87414e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C637417159812849940%
| 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwi
| LCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vU3lOmJ6kFNfEuy9MOo6ZoapadyzGIXPZblhR9QYvD0%
| 3D&reserved=0; we use this syntax in standalone kind signatures in GHC
| 8.10. We *could* change this if there were a compelling reason, but this
| proposal is just continuing an existing feature. By (2), I think you're
| referring to all the complications in the proposals at how to deal with
| names and syntax in arguments -- I wouldn't myself describe this as
| conflating the two namespaces, but rather as defining a subtle set of rules
| for interpreting ambiguous names. It's the subtlety of these rules that
| makes me uncomfortable. For (3), I don't really think there's much there --
| and what there is seems to require (2) (and vice versa). Do you have an
| example of a type-inference interaction you're worried about here?
| >
| > Richard
| >
| > > On Nov 22, 2020, at 12:09 PM, Alejandro Serrano Mena <trupill at gmail.com<mailto:trupill at gmail.com>>
| wrote:
| > >
| > > Hi all,
| > > For me, there are two main concerns here:
| > > This could be split on different proposals: (1) using the “forall a
| > > ->” syntax, (2) conflating the type and term syntax and namespaces, (3)
| introducing checking and inference for it; I find the claim that you can
| just take the Quick Look Impredicativity paper, make a couple of
| adjustments, and get correct checking and inference. This kind of big change
| is the one for which I would actually expect a peer-reviewed paper.
| > >
| > > Regards,
| > > Alejandro
| > >
| > > El El sáb, 21 nov 2020 a las 10:10, Joachim Breitner <mail at joachim-
| breitner.de<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreitner.de%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C4207fbf0e7954c9d357a08d8913b8655%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637419032137707921%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=GlxbNbn8mPALgpViXsHYZK18NTIviH4fm2IBg%2Babm%2B8%3D&reserved=0>> escribió:
| > > > Dear Committee,
| > > >
| > > > Iavor suggested to reject this proposal, but we have not heard a
| > > > lot here yet. Especially before rejecting proposals, we probably
| > > > owe a careful analysis, possibly with suggestions of ways forward
| > > > (splitting the proposal into smaller pieces maybe? Iavor says
| > > > there are many changes there).
| > > >
| > > > If we have continued silence, we’d reject.
| > > >
| > > > Cheers,
| > > > Joachim
| > > >
| > > >
| > > > Am Mittwoch, den 11.11.2020, 13:41 -0800 schrieb Iavor Diatchki:
| > > > > Hello,
| > > > >
| > > > > Proposal #281 has been submitted for review by the committee again,
| please read through it and let's have a discussion. Here are links to the
| proposal's discussion section, and the proposal text:
| > > > >
| > > > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%25>
| > > > > 2Fgithub.com%2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc-proposals%2Fpull%2F281&da
| > > > > ta=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40microsoft.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C4207fbf0e7954c9d357a08d8913b8655%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637419032137707921%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=SeE0V0VRBKGo0H82BMjJCLkc3lVeqGcTqpoixYoEbHc%3D&reserved=0>%7Ccba94a6d611e4700212608d88
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| > > > > 2Fgithub.com%2Fint-index%2Fghc-proposals%2Fblob%2Fvisible-forall
| > > > > %2Fproposals%2F0000-visible-forall.rst&data=04%7C01%7Csimonp
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| > > > >
| > > > > While I suggested acceptance on the previous version, I am leaning
| towards rejecting the proposal now. My reasoning is that I hadn't fully
| understood all the aspects of the original proposal, and the new proposal
| seems to lack a simple modular specification. There are *many* changes
| described in the document, but I found it hard to understand what is the
| current design, from the point of view of a user of the feature, as opposed
| to someone trying to implement it.
| > > > >
| > > > > I'd be curious about what others think.
| > > > >
| > > > > -Iavor
| > > > >
| > > > >
| > > > > _______________________________________________
| > > > > ghc-steering-committee mailing list
| > > > > ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org<mailto:ghc-steering-committee at haskell.org>
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| > > > > =0
| > > > --
| > > > Joachim Breitner
| > > > mail at joachim-breitner.de<mailto:mail at joachim-breitner.de>
| > > >
| > > > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fw
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| > > > erved=0
| > > >
| > > >
| > > > _______________________________________________
| > > > ghc-steering-committee mailing list
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| > 87414e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C637417159812859933
| > %7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
| > k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=er3qe80%2BcqnIn3UIKfjuGu4VDwkH7
| > jEosJqR45eKvn4%3D&reserved=0
| --
| Joachim Breitner
| mail at joachim-breitner.de<mailto:mail at joachim-breitner.de>
|
| https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joachim
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| 212608d88f87414e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C63741715981285
| 9933%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1
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| OK6AMf%2BE%3D&reserved=0
|
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