From mikolaj at well-typed.com  Wed Oct 30 08:59:24 2024
From: mikolaj at well-typed.com (Mikolaj Konarski)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 09:59:24 +0100
Subject: Fwd: Is Cabal a core library?
In-Reply-To: <8049CE94-945D-412A-9691-0BDA489691E5@gmail.com>
References: <8049CE94-945D-412A-9691-0BDA489691E5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHFo2upQVu4xM33yZXwsRry9NuQafqGC6Af0sqhPnTSKM-+k5w@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew, thank you for your kind offer.

Let me forward this to other Cabal developers.

Best regards,
Mikolaj

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Andrew Lelechenko <andrew.lelechenko at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 1:50 AM
Subject: Is Cabal a core library?
To: Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com>, Hécate <hecate at glitchbra.in>


Hi Mikolaj and Hecate,

There is a push to consolidate notions of boot (= needed to build GHC)
and core (= under CLC aegis) libraries, so that critical parts of
Haskell ecosystem are more resilient. How do you feel about
designating `Cabal` and `Cabal-syntax` as core packages?

While at the moment Cabal has a very healthy team (thanks a ton for
your work!), there were moments in Cabal history when things were
drastically different. So having an additional safety net, such that
CLC is able to provide additional / emergency maintenance, could be
helpful in future.

Designating a library as a core package does not impose much change on
day-to-day operations. CLC does not interfere with daily development
of Core Libraries as long as appointed maintainers keep them in an
appropriate shape and support healthy communication with contributors.
You can find the full policy at
https://github.com/haskell/core-libraries-committee?tab=readme-ov-file#core-libraries

(Feel free to forward to other Cabal developers)

Best regards,
Andrew

From a.pelenitsyn at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 10:58:15 2024
From: a.pelenitsyn at gmail.com (Artem Pelenitsyn)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 06:58:15 -0400
Subject: Is Cabal a core library?
In-Reply-To: <CAHFo2upQVu4xM33yZXwsRry9NuQafqGC6Af0sqhPnTSKM-+k5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8049CE94-945D-412A-9691-0BDA489691E5@gmail.com>
 <CAHFo2upQVu4xM33yZXwsRry9NuQafqGC6Af0sqhPnTSKM-+k5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPKAvQXY0cn3=RDOKaWB+fmgfqW_2gbQVEuQzXZn6wegK9jt2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like a good idea to me. We could add it to the agenda of the next
meeting, perhaps. Or, if there's a unanimous support, maybe we don't have
to do that (and save us some time :-))

--
Best, Artem

On Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 4:59 AM Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com>
wrote:

> Andrew, thank you for your kind offer.
>
> Let me forward this to other Cabal developers.
>
> Best regards,
> Mikolaj
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Andrew Lelechenko <andrew.lelechenko at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 1:50 AM
> Subject: Is Cabal a core library?
> To: Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com>, Hécate <hecate at glitchbra.in
> >
>
>
> Hi Mikolaj and Hecate,
>
> There is a push to consolidate notions of boot (= needed to build GHC)
> and core (= under CLC aegis) libraries, so that critical parts of
> Haskell ecosystem are more resilient. How do you feel about
> designating `Cabal` and `Cabal-syntax` as core packages?
>
> While at the moment Cabal has a very healthy team (thanks a ton for
> your work!), there were moments in Cabal history when things were
> drastically different. So having an additional safety net, such that
> CLC is able to provide additional / emergency maintenance, could be
> helpful in future.
>
> Designating a library as a core package does not impose much change on
> day-to-day operations. CLC does not interfere with daily development
> of Core Libraries as long as appointed maintainers keep them in an
> appropriate shape and support healthy communication with contributors.
> You can find the full policy at
>
> https://github.com/haskell/core-libraries-committee?tab=readme-ov-file#core-libraries
>
> (Feel free to forward to other Cabal developers)
>
> Best regards,
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> cabal-devel mailing list
> cabal-devel at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>
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From allbery.b at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 16:21:05 2024
From: allbery.b at gmail.com (Brandon Allbery)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2024 12:21:05 -0400
Subject: Is Cabal a core library?
In-Reply-To: <CAPKAvQXY0cn3=RDOKaWB+fmgfqW_2gbQVEuQzXZn6wegK9jt2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8049CE94-945D-412A-9691-0BDA489691E5@gmail.com>
 <CAHFo2upQVu4xM33yZXwsRry9NuQafqGC6Af0sqhPnTSKM-+k5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPKAvQXY0cn3=RDOKaWB+fmgfqW_2gbQVEuQzXZn6wegK9jt2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKFCL4Xwh8=afBmxzegkJrYHpg9Pk32xYSkeaTjq1Bk9-H5S3g@mail.gmail.com>

It should still probably be at least mentioned during the next meeting, but
I'm in favor.

On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 6:58 AM Artem Pelenitsyn <a.pelenitsyn at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Sounds like a good idea to me. We could add it to the agenda of the next
> meeting, perhaps. Or, if there's a unanimous support, maybe we don't have
> to do that (and save us some time :-))
>
> --
> Best, Artem
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 4:59 AM Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Andrew, thank you for your kind offer.
>>
>> Let me forward this to other Cabal developers.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Mikolaj
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Andrew Lelechenko <andrew.lelechenko at gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 1:50 AM
>> Subject: Is Cabal a core library?
>> To: Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com>, Hécate <
>> hecate at glitchbra.in>
>>
>>
>> Hi Mikolaj and Hecate,
>>
>> There is a push to consolidate notions of boot (= needed to build GHC)
>> and core (= under CLC aegis) libraries, so that critical parts of
>> Haskell ecosystem are more resilient. How do you feel about
>> designating `Cabal` and `Cabal-syntax` as core packages?
>>
>> While at the moment Cabal has a very healthy team (thanks a ton for
>> your work!), there were moments in Cabal history when things were
>> drastically different. So having an additional safety net, such that
>> CLC is able to provide additional / emergency maintenance, could be
>> helpful in future.
>>
>> Designating a library as a core package does not impose much change on
>> day-to-day operations. CLC does not interfere with daily development
>> of Core Libraries as long as appointed maintainers keep them in an
>> appropriate shape and support healthy communication with contributors.
>> You can find the full policy at
>>
>> https://github.com/haskell/core-libraries-committee?tab=readme-ov-file#core-libraries
>>
>> (Feel free to forward to other Cabal developers)
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
>> cabal-devel mailing list
>> cabal-devel at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>>
> _______________________________________________
> cabal-devel mailing list
> cabal-devel at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>


-- 
brandon s allbery kf8nh
allbery.b at gmail.com
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From hecate at haskell.foundation  Thu Oct 31 12:45:37 2024
From: hecate at haskell.foundation (=?UTF-8?Q?Theophile_H=C3=A9cate_Choutri?=)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 13:45:37 +0100
Subject: Is Cabal a core library?
In-Reply-To: <CAKFCL4Xwh8=afBmxzegkJrYHpg9Pk32xYSkeaTjq1Bk9-H5S3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8049CE94-945D-412A-9691-0BDA489691E5@gmail.com>
 <CAHFo2upQVu4xM33yZXwsRry9NuQafqGC6Af0sqhPnTSKM-+k5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPKAvQXY0cn3=RDOKaWB+fmgfqW_2gbQVEuQzXZn6wegK9jt2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKFCL4Xwh8=afBmxzegkJrYHpg9Pk32xYSkeaTjq1Bk9-H5S3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK-_mHHp4b=x=LU8FEm34u3NXfn6PaovVhetHgnkFBBYJtbkBw@mail.gmail.com>

Fully in favour, although perhaps it should cover all libraries in the
cabal repository. Details to be determined during the next meeting. :)

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 at 17:21, Brandon Allbery <allbery.b at gmail.com> wrote:

> It should still probably be at least mentioned during the next meeting,
> but I'm in favor.
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 6:58 AM Artem Pelenitsyn <a.pelenitsyn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a good idea to me. We could add it to the agenda of the next
>> meeting, perhaps. Or, if there's a unanimous support, maybe we don't have
>> to do that (and save us some time :-))
>>
>> --
>> Best, Artem
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 4:59 AM Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew, thank you for your kind offer.
>>>
>>> Let me forward this to other Cabal developers.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Mikolaj
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: Andrew Lelechenko <andrew.lelechenko at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Wed, Oct 30, 2024 at 1:50 AM
>>> Subject: Is Cabal a core library?
>>> To: Mikolaj Konarski <mikolaj at well-typed.com>, Hécate <
>>> hecate at glitchbra.in>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Mikolaj and Hecate,
>>>
>>> There is a push to consolidate notions of boot (= needed to build GHC)
>>> and core (= under CLC aegis) libraries, so that critical parts of
>>> Haskell ecosystem are more resilient. How do you feel about
>>> designating `Cabal` and `Cabal-syntax` as core packages?
>>>
>>> While at the moment Cabal has a very healthy team (thanks a ton for
>>> your work!), there were moments in Cabal history when things were
>>> drastically different. So having an additional safety net, such that
>>> CLC is able to provide additional / emergency maintenance, could be
>>> helpful in future.
>>>
>>> Designating a library as a core package does not impose much change on
>>> day-to-day operations. CLC does not interfere with daily development
>>> of Core Libraries as long as appointed maintainers keep them in an
>>> appropriate shape and support healthy communication with contributors.
>>> You can find the full policy at
>>>
>>> https://github.com/haskell/core-libraries-committee?tab=readme-ov-file#core-libraries
>>>
>>> (Feel free to forward to other Cabal developers)
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Andrew
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cabal-devel mailing list
>>> cabal-devel at haskell.org
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cabal-devel mailing list
>> cabal-devel at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>>
>
>
> --
> brandon s allbery kf8nh
> allbery.b at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> cabal-devel mailing list
> cabal-devel at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>
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From hecate at haskell.foundation  Thu Oct 31 17:03:40 2024
From: hecate at haskell.foundation (=?UTF-8?Q?Theophile_H=C3=A9cate_Choutri?=)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 18:03:40 +0100
Subject: Your vision for the future of Cabal subsystems
Message-ID: <CAK-_mHHO89FsrbhRw53mPnHTEVz8wvBRw5-bSgTKdbGLhPF7Pw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

I'd like to ask the people who have been working, are involved or are
dependent on any subsystem of the Cabal project to take some time and think
about what they would like to see for the future. More directly, I would
like to ask you to dream about the future. Don't concern yourself with
implementation, energy or resources, but rather about the direction, and
the shape of the subsystems that you have a stake in.
Things like the solver, the UX of such and such sub-command, performance of
a certain use-case, targeting a certain demographic, a change in how we get
feedback from end-users…

This will help us with coming up with a product vision that will serve as a
backbone for the immediate and near-future development of cabal. I
understand most of us do this in our free time, but that does not make us
illegitimate to wish for better things, especially when we are involved in
the long run.

See you all on Matrix and during our bi-monthly meeting.

Cheers,
Hécate
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From allbery.b at gmail.com  Thu Oct 31 17:21:03 2024
From: allbery.b at gmail.com (Brandon Allbery)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 13:21:03 -0400
Subject: Your vision for the future of Cabal subsystems
In-Reply-To: <CAK-_mHHO89FsrbhRw53mPnHTEVz8wvBRw5-bSgTKdbGLhPF7Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK-_mHHO89FsrbhRw53mPnHTEVz8wvBRw5-bSgTKdbGLhPF7Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKFCL4UcNVvA+BL0A9pwF7RRrAHB4herpBfR0WwQeX0Ufj+sTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just to sort-of get the ball rolling:

I don't actually have a lot of a stake in Cabal or cabal-install myself; I
mostly work on meta stuff (nursemaiding GHA, maintaining and enhancing
workflows and Mergify config, etc.). But there's a similarly "meta" vision
I have: better interaction with the real stakeholders, to wit, the users.
What are *their* wishes and needs?

On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 1:04 PM Theophile Hécate Choutri via cabal-devel <
cabal-devel at haskell.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'd like to ask the people who have been working, are involved or are
> dependent on any subsystem of the Cabal project to take some time and think
> about what they would like to see for the future. More directly, I would
> like to ask you to dream about the future. Don't concern yourself with
> implementation, energy or resources, but rather about the direction, and
> the shape of the subsystems that you have a stake in.
> Things like the solver, the UX of such and such sub-command, performance
> of a certain use-case, targeting a certain demographic, a change in how we
> get feedback from end-users…
>
> This will help us with coming up with a product vision that will serve as
> a backbone for the immediate and near-future development of cabal. I
> understand most of us do this in our free time, but that does not make us
> illegitimate to wish for better things, especially when we are involved in
> the long run.
>
> See you all on Matrix and during our bi-monthly meeting.
>
> Cheers,
> Hécate
> _______________________________________________
> cabal-devel mailing list
> cabal-devel at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>


-- 
brandon s allbery kf8nh
allbery.b at gmail.com
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From a.pelenitsyn at gmail.com  Thu Oct 31 17:34:02 2024
From: a.pelenitsyn at gmail.com (Artem Pelenitsyn)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 13:34:02 -0400
Subject: Your vision for the future of Cabal subsystems
In-Reply-To: <CAKFCL4UcNVvA+BL0A9pwF7RRrAHB4herpBfR0WwQeX0Ufj+sTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK-_mHHO89FsrbhRw53mPnHTEVz8wvBRw5-bSgTKdbGLhPF7Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKFCL4UcNVvA+BL0A9pwF7RRrAHB4herpBfR0WwQeX0Ufj+sTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPKAvQXmbuRjKGWSfPwz7cYxo=i21pJfTqa=4O7DmUxMsx9DLw@mail.gmail.com>

As I mentioned in the call, I'd like the Cabal part of the error message
index to thrive (that is, to be the opposite of what it is now).
Hécate says Zuri/Muni-hacks will take care of that --- awesome! Hope this
happens in my lifetime!

I want cabal-install to be more like package manager in Julia where, when I
say import Blah and Blah isn't available locally, it tells me: Blah is not
installed but we can do it. Proceed? [Y/n]

As per later discussions, it'd be interesting to see how the solver could
be friendlier to the users.
E.g. if we had a little LLM inside cabal (or interfaced with cabal) that
could talk through the grievances that user has, and come up with
suggestions like adding a constraint or upgrading GHC or something.

--
Best, Artem

On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 1:21 PM Brandon Allbery <allbery.b at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just to sort-of get the ball rolling:
>
> I don't actually have a lot of a stake in Cabal or cabal-install myself;
> I mostly work on meta stuff (nursemaiding GHA, maintaining and enhancing
> workflows and Mergify config, etc.). But there's a similarly "meta" vision
> I have: better interaction with the real stakeholders, to wit, the users.
> What are *their* wishes and needs?
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 1:04 PM Theophile Hécate Choutri via cabal-devel <
> cabal-devel at haskell.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I'd like to ask the people who have been working, are involved or are
>> dependent on any subsystem of the Cabal project to take some time and think
>> about what they would like to see for the future. More directly, I would
>> like to ask you to dream about the future. Don't concern yourself with
>> implementation, energy or resources, but rather about the direction, and
>> the shape of the subsystems that you have a stake in.
>> Things like the solver, the UX of such and such sub-command, performance
>> of a certain use-case, targeting a certain demographic, a change in how we
>> get feedback from end-users…
>>
>> This will help us with coming up with a product vision that will serve as
>> a backbone for the immediate and near-future development of cabal. I
>> understand most of us do this in our free time, but that does not make us
>> illegitimate to wish for better things, especially when we are involved in
>> the long run.
>>
>> See you all on Matrix and during our bi-monthly meeting.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Hécate
>> _______________________________________________
>> cabal-devel mailing list
>> cabal-devel at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>>
>
>
> --
> brandon s allbery kf8nh
> allbery.b at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> cabal-devel mailing list
> cabal-devel at haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>
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From allbery.b at gmail.com  Thu Oct 31 18:03:27 2024
From: allbery.b at gmail.com (Brandon Allbery)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 14:03:27 -0400
Subject: Your vision for the future of Cabal subsystems
In-Reply-To: <CAPKAvQXmbuRjKGWSfPwz7cYxo=i21pJfTqa=4O7DmUxMsx9DLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK-_mHHO89FsrbhRw53mPnHTEVz8wvBRw5-bSgTKdbGLhPF7Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKFCL4UcNVvA+BL0A9pwF7RRrAHB4herpBfR0WwQeX0Ufj+sTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPKAvQXmbuRjKGWSfPwz7cYxo=i21pJfTqa=4O7DmUxMsx9DLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKFCL4Ui1bhpr5qrX8qSS4JiVG8isLv9LcR0u+QDrsRKb8CX+g@mail.gmail.com>

Worth noting on that last is that Phil attempted to improve that situation
in https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/9578, but apparently it's not
working for some reason (there was a discussion of this recently but I'm
not finding it on a quick scan of PRs).

On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 1:34 PM Artem Pelenitsyn <a.pelenitsyn at gmail.com>
wrote:

> As I mentioned in the call, I'd like the Cabal part of the error message
> index to thrive (that is, to be the opposite of what it is now).
> Hécate says Zuri/Muni-hacks will take care of that --- awesome! Hope this
> happens in my lifetime!
>
> I want cabal-install to be more like package manager in Julia where, when
> I say import Blah and Blah isn't available locally, it tells me: Blah is
> not installed but we can do it. Proceed? [Y/n]
>
> As per later discussions, it'd be interesting to see how the solver could
> be friendlier to the users.
> E.g. if we had a little LLM inside cabal (or interfaced with cabal) that
> could talk through the grievances that user has, and come up with
> suggestions like adding a constraint or upgrading GHC or something.
>
> --
> Best, Artem
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 1:21 PM Brandon Allbery <allbery.b at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Just to sort-of get the ball rolling:
>>
>> I don't actually have a lot of a stake in Cabal or cabal-install myself;
>> I mostly work on meta stuff (nursemaiding GHA, maintaining and enhancing
>> workflows and Mergify config, etc.). But there's a similarly "meta" vision
>> I have: better interaction with the real stakeholders, to wit, the users.
>> What are *their* wishes and needs?
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 1:04 PM Theophile Hécate Choutri via cabal-devel <
>> cabal-devel at haskell.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I'd like to ask the people who have been working, are involved or are
>>> dependent on any subsystem of the Cabal project to take some time and think
>>> about what they would like to see for the future. More directly, I would
>>> like to ask you to dream about the future. Don't concern yourself with
>>> implementation, energy or resources, but rather about the direction, and
>>> the shape of the subsystems that you have a stake in.
>>> Things like the solver, the UX of such and such sub-command, performance
>>> of a certain use-case, targeting a certain demographic, a change in how we
>>> get feedback from end-users…
>>>
>>> This will help us with coming up with a product vision that will serve
>>> as a backbone for the immediate and near-future development of cabal. I
>>> understand most of us do this in our free time, but that does not make us
>>> illegitimate to wish for better things, especially when we are involved in
>>> the long run.
>>>
>>> See you all on Matrix and during our bi-monthly meeting.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Hécate
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cabal-devel mailing list
>>> cabal-devel at haskell.org
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> brandon s allbery kf8nh
>> allbery.b at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> cabal-devel mailing list
>> cabal-devel at haskell.org
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cabal-devel
>>
>

-- 
brandon s allbery kf8nh
allbery.b at gmail.com
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