<div dir="auto">If your semiring is idempotent, then you can simply have<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"> fromNatural = idempotentFromNatural</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">where</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">idempotentFromNatural :: Semiring a => Natural -> a</div><div dir="auto">idempotentFromNatural n = if n == 0 then zero else one</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It's like stimes in Semigroup. The default implementation is almost always sensible, and sometimes it can have more meaning (like how the Sum monoid allows negative values as the repeat argument in stimes).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And again, it's an operation that can be defined by default on all Semirings, and can be vastly faster than the default on some. That, in my opinion, justifies its inclusion. If you don't feel it's meaningful for your Semiring, just let it be defined by default. But it's definitely useful for numeric and derived ones.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 12:51 Carter Schonwald <<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">ooo, thats a good point about lattices/partial orders! (we like those here too, but sometimes forget :) )<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 1:34 PM Andreas Abel <<a href="mailto:andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Well, I see your arguments, but cannot help the feeling that you are <br>
reasoning from a specific instance family of semirings, namely numerical <br>
ones (N, Z, Q, ...).<br>
<br>
For idempotent semirings (e.g. the example I gave), repetitively adding <br>
one gets you nowhere. (Cf. also lattices, many of which are semirings.)<br>
<br>
I'd be convinced if Natural was something like the free semiring, but <br>
this is certainly not the case.<br>
<br>
Semirings are really diverse, I don't think the Semiring class should be <br>
hijacked for a particular flavor of semirings. We do not have any such <br>
pretext for Semigroup or Monoid either.<br>
<br>
Enjoy the diversity at <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiring" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiring</a><br>
<br>
On 2020-02-04 17:32, Zemyla wrote:<br>
> It really doesn't matter if it's not "interesting" or not surjective for <br>
> some Semirings. It should be included, because:<br>
> <br>
> (a) Even for semirings where it is "interesting", it's not surjective <br>
> (for instance, Rational or Double)<br>
> (b) It's a method with a default definition, so you don't have to expend <br>
> any mental effort on it<br>
> (c) A lot of instances have uninteresting methods: for instance, (*>) <br>
> and (<*) for Applicative ((->) e) are const id and const respectively. <br>
> Haskell adds methods to classes when they're always possible and <br>
> sometimes useful/interesting/faster, rather than when they're always <br>
> interesting.<br>
> (d) It's useful for Semiring-generic methods and instances.<br>
> (e) It can achieve an asymptotic speedup on some instances. Like, if you <br>
> have Semiring a => Semiring (f a) for some type f, then you can have <br>
> fromNatural n = pure (fromNatural n) instead of doing the whole O(log n) <br>
> song and dance with the default definition. Also, your example admits a <br>
> simple definition:<br>
> fromNatural n = if n == 0 then S.empty else S.singleton True<br>
> (f) "zero" and "one" can be defined in terms of fromNatural, for <br>
> programmers who only need to define that:<br>
> zero = fromNatural 0<br>
> one = fromNatural 1<br>
> This leads to the MINIMAL pragma on Semiring being {-# MINIMAL plus, <br>
> times, (zero, one | fromNatural) #-}<br>
> (g) If it's not included in the class, but in some subclass <br>
> (NaturalSemiring, you proposed), but it's possible from the class, then <br>
> people will just define and use the O(log n) version instead of <br>
> requiring the subclass, leading to wasted effort and duplicated code.<br>
> <br>
> On Tue, Feb 4, 2020, 09:20 Andreas Abel <<a href="mailto:andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de</a> <br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > There is a homomorphism from the Naturals to any Semiring<br>
> <br>
> Sure, but there are many finite semirings where I would not care about<br>
> such a homomorphism, thus, why force me to define it?<br>
> <br>
> > fromNatural 0 = zero<br>
> > fromNatural 1 = one<br>
> > fromNatural (m + n) = fromNatural m `plus` fromNatural n<br>
> > fromNatural (m * n) = fromNatural m `times` fromNatural n<br>
> <br>
> This might not be surjective, and also not very interesting. For<br>
> instance consider the semiring<br>
> <br>
> Set Bool<br>
> zero = Set.empty<br>
> one = Set.singleton True<br>
> plus = Set.union<br>
> times s t = { x == y | x <- s, y <- t }<br>
> <br>
> This semiring models variances (covariant = {True}, contravariant =<br>
> {False}, constant = {}, dontknow = {True,False}). times is for<br>
> function<br>
> composition and plus combination of information.<br>
> <br>
> The fromNatural targets only the zero/one-fragment since plus is<br>
> idempotent. I conjecture there is not a single surjective semiring-hom<br>
> from Nat to Set Bool. Thus, a function fromNatural is totally<br>
> uninteresting for the general case of semirings.<br>
> <br>
> On 2020-02-04 13:42, Zemyla wrote:<br>
> > There is a homomorphism from the Naturals to any Semiring, which<br>
> obeys:<br>
> ><br>
> > fromNatural 0 = zero<br>
> > fromNatural 1 = one<br>
> > fromNatural (m + n) = fromNatural m `plus` fromNatural n<br>
> > fromNatural (m * n) = fromNatural m `times` fromNatural n<br>
> ><br>
> > The simplest implementation is this, but it's nowhere near the most<br>
> > efficient:<br>
> ><br>
> > fromNatural :: Semiring a => Natural -> a<br>
> > fromNatural 0 = zero<br>
> > fromNatural n = one `plus` fromNatural (n - 1)<br>
> ><br>
> > One which takes O(log n) time instead of O(n) would go like this:<br>
> ><br>
> > fromNatural :: Semiring a => Natural -> a<br>
> > fromNatural = go 0 zero one<br>
> > go i s m n | i `seq` s `seq` m `seq` n `seq` False = undefined<br>
> > go _ s _ 0 = s<br>
> > go i s m n<br>
> > | testBit n i = go (i + 1) (plus s m) (plus m m) (clearBit n i)<br>
> > | otherwise = go (i + 1) s (plus m m) n<br>
> ><br>
> > On Tue, Feb 4, 2020, 02:21 Andreas Abel <<a href="mailto:andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andreas.abel@ifi.lmu.de</a>>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > > class Semiring a where<br>
> > > zero :: a<br>
> > > plus :: a -> a -> a<br>
> > > one :: a<br>
> > > times :: a -> a -> a<br>
> > > fromNatural :: Natural -> a<br>
> ><br>
> > I think `fromNatural` should not be part of the `Semiring` class,<br>
> > but we<br>
> > could have an extension (NaturalSemiring) that adds this method.<br>
> ><br>
> > In the Agda code base, we have, for lack of a standard,<br>
> rolled our own<br>
> > semiring class,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <a href="https://github.com/agda/agda/blob/master/src/full/Agda/Utils/SemiRing.hs" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/agda/agda/blob/master/src/full/Agda/Utils/SemiRing.hs</a><br>
> ><br>
> > and we use it for several finite semirings, e.g.,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <a href="https://github.com/agda/agda/blob/64c0c2e813a84f91b3accd7c56efaa53712bc3f5/src/full/Agda/TypeChecking/Positivity/Occurrence.hs#L127-L155" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/agda/agda/blob/64c0c2e813a84f91b3accd7c56efaa53712bc3f5/src/full/Agda/TypeChecking/Positivity/Occurrence.hs#L127-L155</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Cheers,<br>
> > Andreas<br>
> ><br>
> > On 2020-02-03 22:34, Carter Schonwald wrote:<br>
> > > Andrew: could you explain the algebra notation you were<br>
> using for<br>
> > short<br>
> > > hand? I think I followed, but for people the libraries list<br>
> > might be<br>
> > > their first exposure to advanced / graduate abstract<br>
> algebra (which<br>
> > > winds up being simpler than most folks expect ;) )<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 4:36 PM Carter Schonwald<br>
> > > <<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a>>>>> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > that actually sounds pretty sane. I think!<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:38 PM Andrew Lelechenko<br>
> > > <<a href="mailto:andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrew.lelechenko@gmail.com</a>>>>><br>
> > > wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020, Dannyu NDos wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Second, I suggest to move `abs` and `signum`<br>
> from `Num` to<br>
> > > `Floating`<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I can fully relate your frustration with `abs` and<br>
> > `signum` (and<br>
> > > numeric type classes in Haskell altogether). But<br>
> IMO breaking<br>
> > > both in `Num` and in `Floating` at once is not a<br>
> > promising way<br>
> > > to make things proper.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I would rather follow the beaten track of Applicative<br>
> > Monad and<br>
> > > Semigroup Monoid proposals and - as a first step -<br>
> > introduce a<br>
> > > superclass (probably, borrowing the design from<br>
> `semirings`<br>
> > > package):<br>
> > ><br>
> > > class Semiring a where<br>
> > > zero :: a<br>
> > > plus :: a -> a -> a<br>
> > > one :: a<br>
> > > times :: a -> a -> a<br>
> > > fromNatural :: Natural -> a<br>
> > > class Semiring a => Num a where ...<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Tangible benefits in `base` include:<br>
> > > a) instance Semiring Bool,<br>
> > > b) a total instance Semiring Natural (in contrast to a<br>
> > partial<br>
> > > instance Num Natural),<br>
> > > c) instance Num a => Semiring (Complex a) (in<br>
> contrast to<br>
> > > instance RealFloat a => Num (Complex a)),<br>
> > > d) newtypes Sum and Product would require only<br>
> Semiring<br>
> > > constraint instead of Num.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Best regards,<br>
> > > Andrew<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > Libraries mailing list<br>
> > > <a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a>>><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a>>>><br>
> > > <a href="http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > Libraries mailing list<br>
> > > <a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a>>><br>
> > > <a href="http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Libraries mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Libraries@haskell.org</a>>><br>
> > <a href="http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries</a><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>