<div dir="ltr"><div><div>> It's your fault if you didn't get the joke"<br><br></div>This never happened.<br><br>> Ideal would be a quick "Sorry!"<br><br></div>This did.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 4:18 AM, Tom Murphy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:amindfv@gmail.com" target="_blank">amindfv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hi Fumiaki!<br><br></div> I agree with you that some poorly-chosen words by a few people have soured this conversation, but please don't let that turn you completely off of the productive conversation most of us are attempting to have! I think it's largely been successful, too: even if many of us haven't changed our -1/+1 votes, I for one have had my ideas challenged and have a more nuanced view than before talking with everyone here.<br></div> Henning and Edward are two examples (one from each side of the +1/-1 chasm) who have been aided by this discussion, in making important progress to finding a middle ground (each in the form of proposed compiler changes).<br><br></div> To the rest of us: Fumiaki regretting having posted here is a pretty stark example of why speaking politely matters. People being scared away and feeling unwelcome is a real phenomenon, and we need to do our part to fix it. I'd propose:<br><br> - If you haven't read it already, SPJ recently wrote a heartfelt letter on the subject [0]. We've gotten better since then, but clearly we're not finished.<br></div><div> - Civility is a norm, and norms sometimes need to be enforced. From a distance, we all look bad (and unwelcoming!) if anyone is hostile and we don't make it clear it's not acceptable. Speak up! That said, everyone makes mistakes - try to give people space to apologize and move on.<br></div><div> - If someone says something insulting to you, please take that as a sign to become more polite, not less so. The downward spiral is real.<br></div><div><br></div> If you're called out for saying something regrettable (again, regardless of if you're +1 or -1 on this issue), *please* take our desire for civil conversation seriously. Responses like (I'm paraphrasing, and not trying to cite anyone specifically): "It was a joke (mostly)" and "It's your fault if you didn't get the joke" are worse than not writing anything at all. Ideal would be a quick "Sorry!"<br><br></div><div>Thanks, all!<br></div><div>Tom</div><div><br>[0] <a href="https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2016-September/024995.html" target="_blank">https://mail.haskell.org/<wbr>pipermail/haskell/2016-<wbr>September/024995.html</a><div><div><br><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Fumiaki Kinoshita <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fumiexcel@gmail.com" target="_blank">fumiexcel@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">The discussion has diverged to flaming due to a few offensive people. I guess I shouldn't have posted a proposal here, I should have submitted a patch instead.</div><div class="m_8234572952131803059HOEnZb"><div class="m_8234572952131803059h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-03-23 19:53 GMT+09:00 Fumiaki Kinoshita <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fumiexcel@gmail.com" target="_blank">fumiexcel@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">It's surprising that they are missing (forgive me, I'm not here to make people grumpy).</div>
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