<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Do those participating in this thread think sentiments like this are constructive or inclusive? Is this how we encourage participation from newer members of the community?</span><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Framing this debate in terms of a programming pecking order is unprofessional. Many times, those higher in the ranks will prefer a more conservative approach, as experienced surgeons once resisted the introduction of the autoclave. </div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">The problem isn't the change; it's what the change costs you. Provide data and make your case. Talk about what it _costs_ you, show evidence for that cost, and describe what would make the change acceptable. Do it without talking down to a constructed "other" of the people who've neglected to make the same status display you've injected into this conversation. That could be valuable input to the discussion, so we would could weigh costs and benefits as a community. </span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">There _are_ costs associated with going ahead with MRP, especially for those with large 1mm LOC industrial codebases. This is partly why I'm lukewarm on the change, but I believe it needs to happen sooner or later and waiting for more 1mm LOC codebases to be born isn't going to make it any better. The suggestions that we consider the example of 2to3 I believe have been more constructive, particularly since we have this lovely language which lends itself so nicely to static analysis anyway.</span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Malcolm Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:malcolm.wallace@me.com" target="_blank">malcolm.wallace@me.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=""><br>
On 6 Oct 2015, at 17:47, Herbert Valerio Riedel wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
>> The problem by discussions is that they are done between two groups with<br>
>> quite a difference in experience. On one hand you have people like Bryan,<br>
>> who have considerable contributions to the Haskell ecosystem and much<br>
>> experience in large scale software development (e.g. from Facebook). On the<br>
>> other hand you have people who don't. That's okay. We've all been at the<br>
>> latter group at some point of our career.<br>
> [...]<br>
><br>
> At the risk of stating the obvious: I don't think it matters from which<br>
> group a given argument comes from as its validity doesn't depend on the<br>
> messenger.<br>
<br>
</span>In that case, I think you are misunderstanding the relevance of Johan's argument here. Let me try to phrase it differently. Some people who can reasonably claim to have experience with million-line plus codebases are warning that this change is too disruptive, and makes maintenance harder than it ought to be. On the other hand, of the people who say the change is not really disruptive, none of them have (yet?) made claims to have experience of the maintenance of extremely large-scale codebases. The authority of the speaker does matter in technical arguments of this nature: people without the relevant experience are simply unqualified to make guesses about the impact.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Malcolm<br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Chris Allen<br><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Currently working on </span><a href="http://haskellbook.com" target="_blank">http://haskellbook.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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