[Haskell-community] Civility notes (was "Traversable instances for (, , ) a b")

Thu Apr 6 00:26:19 UTC 2017

This isn't too bad, but if we must have a CoC I would prefer something
based upon [Wheaton's Law] (admittedly, it's probably more open to
abuse due to lack of defining terms).

Wheaton's Law: http://www.wheatonslaw.com/

On 6 April 2017 at 10:11, Carter Schonwald <carter.schonwald at gmail.com> wrote:
> https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/conduct/
>
> looks pretty reasonable. i like how it makes clear intent while not being
> very "rules lawyery", because at the end of the day human judgment and
> feedback is what matters
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Tikhon Jelvis <tikhon at jelv.is> wrote:
>>
>> Just had a chance to look at Ruby's CoC, as suggested by Francesco Ariis.
>> It looks like exactly what I had in mind.
>>
>> I agree with Tom that starting with an existing code would be a good idea
>> and, if we do decide to do it, my vote is definitely for Ruby's over the
>> alternatives I've seen.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 5:25 PM, <amindfv at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El 5 abr 2017, a las 13:20, Jakub Daniel <jakub.daniel at gmail.com>
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> What is the expected effect/role of CoC? Is it expected that people would
>>> actually exhibit different behaviour because of a document? Is there a
>>> reason to believe good behaviour in other communities come from existing
>>> CoCs? I honestly doubt people prone to violate such rules tend to read such
>>> documents and since there is no way to enforce it, what point is there?
>>>
>>>
>>> If you'll forgive a strained metaphor: imagine you arrive in an
>>> unfamiliar land, one which has a reputation for the occasional food fight.
>>> You're wearing nice clothes and don't want your day ruined by getting food
>>> on them. Some restaurants have a big sign out front: "Absolutely NO food
>>> fighting. Anyone caught food fighting will be ejected". Other restaurants
>>> don't have the sign. When picking a place to eat, aren't you likely to
>>> gravitate to a restaurant which has a sign?
>>>
>>> Isn't the effort to maintain such a document just a waste?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hopefully it'll be very low-maintenance!
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5 Apr 2017, at 20:54, amindfv at gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm also +1 to a CoC, although have less of an opinion on what shape it
>>> should take. CoCs are an effective way of making people who may feel like
>>> outsiders to a community feel more welcome. The Haskell community is amazing
>>> and inclusive but not the most diverse, and projects which are doing better
>>> on that front largely all have CoCs.
>>>
>>> In terms of what shape it takes: there are lots of off-the-shelf ones for
>>> different needs: I'd suggest picking one of them.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>> El 5 abr 2017, a las 11:44, Paolo Giarrusso <p.giarrusso at gmail.com>
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> Rust's code of conduct (and the conduct of leaders) have been very
>>> successful at creating a welcoming community. However, those rules were
>>> there from the start.
>>>
>>> What's crucial is that a code of conduct is really agreed upon by a
>>> community and its elders. So thanks to Simon Peyton Jones for starting this
>>> conversation.
>>> In particular, a CoC to address known issues (not just in the present
>>> discussion) would probably be easier to agree on.
>>>
>>> > We should *assume* people set out to be kind and courteous and help
>>> > them do that consistently.
>>>
>>> The guideline I find useful is "assume good faith" (used for instance in
>>> Wikipedia), as long as you don't have extraordinary evidence. And that's a
>>> guidelines that needs to be stated.
>>> Opinions on politeness in the wild are much more varied. How polite do
>>> you need to be, if somebody insists on being wrong? And with actual trolls?
>>>
>>> > Why is the idea that "everything is a tradeoff" enshrined as a rule?
>>>
>>> I don't know if it's a strict rule there, how strict it should be, or
>>> whether it works in a CoC. But I find it a very good guideline for educated
>>> debate. I learned it (implicitly) in my academic PL training: PL design is
>>> founded on math but is no science yet. Debate in hard sciences is different.
>>>
>>> Because this rule is in fact fundamental to establish respect under
>>> disagreement. The Rust CoC says "There is *seldom* a right answer." If a
>>> question has a right answer, the others become wrong, misguided, heretics,
>>> .... idiots... OK, you can censor the word "idiot", but that won't help
>>> much. Or you can admit that reasonable people might disagree on `Foldable
>>> ((,) a)` (as most already agree), and give that as a guideline, just as
>>> "assume good faith". That doesn't make "2 + 2 = 5" legitimate of course—some
>>> "common sense" is still needed.
>>>
>>> "There is *seldom* a right answer" is an unstated rule in academic papers
>>> (where it's implied by peer review), and it IMHO works rather well there,
>>> even on the few academics who will loudly proclaim elsewhere there is a
>>> right answer.
>>>
>>> Indeed, I don't want to misrepresent SPJ, but I feel he is often happy to
>>> talk about Haskell tradeoffs when they're there, even when others loudly
>>> proclaim Haskell is strictly and clearly better than X.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Paolo
>>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2017 10:55, "Tikhon Jelvis" <tikhon at jelv.is> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I would not be against a *short and simple* code of conduct
>>>> that specifically addresses issues we have seen. I'm imagining clear
>>>> guidelines that help people express themselves in a thoughtful and polite
>>>> way. Something in the style of the Hacker News commenting guidelines[1] (at
>>>> least the first four; the rest are specific to HN/Reddit-like sites).
>>>>
>>>> One of the best examples I've seen in the wild had a single rule: no
>>>> personal attacks. It's simple to understand and follow with no risk of
>>>> stifling or derailing real discussions, and yet unambiguously rules out the
>>>> majority of rude comments I see online (ignoring spam and outright
>>>> trolling).
>>>>
>>>> I do *not* like Rust's code of conduct specifically. It does not provide
>>>> clear guidelines on civility/politeness and covers too many other things,
>>>> including a lot of (often political) baggage. Why is the idea that
>>>> "everything is a tradeoff" enshrined as a rule? The rule on politeness is
>>>> clearly deemphasized: "Please be kind and courteous. There’s no need to be
>>>> mean or rude." is so vague it may as well not be in the code of conduct. We
>>>> should *assume* people set out to be kind and courteous and help them do
>>>> that consistently. The "Citizen Code of Conduct" they link to has even more
>>>> baggage and I believe it should *not* serve as the basis for anything we
>>>> might adopt as a community.
>>>>
>>>> [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html see section "In
>>>> Comments"
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Simon Peyton Jones via Haskell-community
>>>> <haskell-community at haskell.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Friends
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I second what Tom says below.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Almost everyone expresses their views with respect, even when
>>>>> disagreeing.  The exceptions are (in my guess) mostly unintentional, at
>>>>> least in the extent of the offence caused.   That does not make them
>>>>> unimportant, because a slow slippage in our collective standards is, over
>>>>> time corrosive.  But it does mean that we can draw breath, as Tom has
>>>>> helpfully done here, and without condemning anyone reset our standards.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve been talking to a couple of people about whether it would be
>>>>> useful to have an explicit Haskell Community Code of Conduct.  Many online
>>>>> communities have one (e.g. Rust), and it might be helpful for everyone to
>>>>> have a concrete baseline rather than an unwritten standard.  Any views on
>>>>> that?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Simon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Libraries [mailto:libraries-bounces at haskell.org] On Behalf Of Tom
>>>>> Murphy
>>>>> Sent: 02 April 2017 19:18
>>>>> To: Fumiaki Kinoshita <fumiexcel at gmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: libraries <libraries at haskell.org>
>>>>> Subject: Civility notes (was "Traversable instances for (,,) a b")
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Fumiaki!
>>>>>
>>>>>      I agree with you that some poorly-chosen words by a few people
>>>>> have soured this conversation, but please don't let that turn you completely
>>>>> off of the productive conversation most of us are attempting to have! I
>>>>> think it's largely been successful, too: even if many of us haven't changed
>>>>> our -1/+1 votes, I for one have had my ideas challenged and have a more
>>>>> nuanced view than before talking with everyone here.
>>>>>
>>>>>      Henning and Edward are two examples (one from each side of the
>>>>> +1/-1 chasm) who have been aided by this discussion, in making important
>>>>> progress to finding a middle ground (each in the form of proposed compiler
>>>>> changes).
>>>>>
>>>>>      To the rest of us: Fumiaki regretting having posted here is a
>>>>> pretty stark example of why speaking politely matters. People being scared
>>>>> away and feeling unwelcome is a real phenomenon, and we need to do our part
>>>>> to fix it. I'd propose:
>>>>>
>>>>>      - If you haven't read it already, SPJ recently wrote a heartfelt
>>>>> letter on the subject [0]. We've gotten better since then, but clearly we're
>>>>> not finished.
>>>>>
>>>>>      - Civility is a norm, and norms sometimes need to be enforced.
>>>>> From a distance, we all look bad (and unwelcoming!) if anyone is hostile and
>>>>> we don't make it clear it's not acceptable. Speak up! That said, everyone
>>>>> makes mistakes - try to give people space to apologize and move on.
>>>>>
>>>>>      - If someone says something insulting to you, please take that as
>>>>> a sign to become more polite, not less so. The downward spiral is real.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>      If you're called out for saying something regrettable (again,
>>>>> regardless of if you're +1 or -1 on this issue), *please* take our desire
>>>>> for civil conversation seriously. Responses like (I'm paraphrasing, and not
>>>>> trying to cite anyone specifically): "It was a joke (mostly)" and "It's your
>>>>> fault if you didn't get the joke" are worse than not writing anything at
>>>>> all. Ideal would be a quick "Sorry!"
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, all!
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [0]
>>>>> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2016-September/024995.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Fumiaki Kinoshita
>>>>> <fumiexcel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The discussion has diverged to flaming due to a few offensive people. I
>>>>> guess I shouldn't have posted a proposal here, I should have submitted a
>>>>> patch instead.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2017-03-23 19:53 GMT+09:00 Fumiaki Kinoshita <fumiexcel at gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's surprising that they are missing (forgive me, I'm not here to make
>>>>> people grumpy).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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