<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">+1 on Tikhon's points as well. Short and sweet. Get to the point. Leave it at that. The bigger it is, the more there is to argue about!</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Carter Schonwald <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank">carter.schonwald@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">agreed with Tikhon's points, they say it way better than I could</div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Tikhon Jelvis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tikhon@jelv.is" target="_blank">tikhon@jelv.is</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Personally, I would not be against a *short and simple* code of conduct that specifically addresses issues we have seen. I'm imagining clear guidelines that help people express themselves in a thoughtful and polite way. Something in the style of the Hacker News commenting guidelines[1] (at least the first four; the rest are specific to HN/Reddit-like sites).</div><div><br></div><div>One of the best examples I've seen in the wild had a single rule: no personal attacks. It's simple to understand and follow with no risk of stifling or derailing real discussions, and yet unambiguously rules out the majority of rude comments I see online (ignoring spam and outright trolling).</div><div><br></div><div>I do *not* like Rust's code of conduct specifically. It does not provide clear guidelines on civility/politeness and covers too many other things, including a lot of (often political) baggage. Why is the idea that "everything is a tradeoff" enshrined as a rule? The rule on politeness is clearly deemphasized: "Please be kind and courteous. There’s no need to be mean or rude." is so vague it may as well not be in the code of conduct. We should *assume* people set out to be kind and courteous and help them do that consistently. The "Citizen Code of Conduct" they link to has even more baggage and I believe it should *not* serve as the basis for anything we might adopt as a community.</div></div><div><br></div><div>[1]: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html" target="_blank">https://news.ycombinator.<wbr>com/newsguidelines.html</a> see section "In Comments"</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="m_6439755827505447721h5">On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Simon Peyton Jones via Haskell-community <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:haskell-community@haskell.org" target="_blank">haskell-community@haskell.org</a><wbr>></span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="m_6439755827505447721h5">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Friends<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I second what Tom says below.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Almost everyone expresses their views with respect, even when disagreeing. The exceptions are (in my guess) mostly unintentional, at least in the extent of the offence caused. That does
not make them unimportant, because a slow slippage in our collective standards is, over time corrosive. But it does mean that we can draw breath, as Tom has helpfully done here, and without condemning anyone reset our standards.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I’ve been talking to a couple of people about whether it would be useful to have an explicit Haskell Community Code of Conduct. Many online communities have one (e.g.
<a href="https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html" target="_blank">Rust</a>), and it might be helpful for everyone to have a concrete baseline rather than an unwritten standard. Any views on that?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Simon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Libraries [mailto:<a href="mailto:libraries-bounces@haskell.org" target="_blank">libraries-bounces@hask<wbr>ell.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom Murphy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 02 April 2017 19:18<br>
<b>To:</b> Fumiaki Kinoshita <<a href="mailto:fumiexcel@gmail.com" target="_blank">fumiexcel@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> libraries <<a href="mailto:libraries@haskell.org" target="_blank">libraries@haskell.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Civility notes (was "Traversable instances for (,,) a b")<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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Hi Fumiaki!<u></u><u></u></p>
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I agree with you that some poorly-chosen words by a few people have soured this conversation, but please don't let that turn you completely off of the productive conversation most of us are attempting to have! I think it's largely been successful, too:
even if many of us haven't changed our -1/+1 votes, I for one have had my ideas challenged and have a more nuanced view than before talking with everyone here.<u></u><u></u></p>
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Henning and Edward are two examples (one from each side of the +1/-1 chasm) who have been aided by this discussion, in making important progress to finding a middle ground (each in the form of proposed compiler changes).<u></u><u></u></p>
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To the rest of us: Fumiaki regretting having posted here is a pretty stark example of why speaking politely matters. People being scared away and feeling unwelcome is a real phenomenon, and we need to do our part to fix it. I'd propose:<br>
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- If you haven't read it already, SPJ recently wrote a heartfelt letter on the subject [0]. We've gotten better since then, but clearly we're not finished.<u></u><u></u></p>
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- Civility is a norm, and norms sometimes need to be enforced. From a distance, we all look bad (and unwelcoming!) if anyone is hostile and we don't make it clear it's not acceptable. Speak up! That said, everyone makes mistakes - try to give people space
to apologize and move on.<u></u><u></u></p>
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- If someone says something insulting to you, please take that as a sign to become more polite, not less so. The downward spiral is real.<u></u><u></u></p>
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If you're called out for saying something regrettable (again, regardless of if you're +1 or -1 on this issue), *please* take our desire for civil conversation seriously. Responses like (I'm paraphrasing, and not trying to cite anyone specifically): "It
was a joke (mostly)" and "It's your fault if you didn't get the joke" are worse than not writing anything at all. Ideal would be a quick "Sorry!"<u></u><u></u></p>
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Thanks, all!<u></u><u></u></p>
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Tom<u></u><u></u></p>
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[0] <a href="https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2016-September/024995.html" target="_blank">
https://mail.haskell.org/piper<wbr>mail/haskell/2016-September/02<wbr>4995.html</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Fumiaki Kinoshita <<a href="mailto:fumiexcel@gmail.com" target="_blank">fumiexcel@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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The discussion has diverged to flaming due to a few offensive people. I guess I shouldn't have posted a proposal here, I should have submitted a patch instead.<u></u><u></u></p>
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2017-03-23 19:53 GMT+09:00 Fumiaki Kinoshita <<a href="mailto:fumiexcel@gmail.com" target="_blank">fumiexcel@gmail.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p>
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It's surprising that they are missing (forgive me, I'm not here to make people grumpy).<u></u><u></u></p>
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