This sounds awesome, I'm totally behind it. Thank you Gershom!<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 10:09 AM Gershom B <<a href="mailto:gershomb@gmail.com">gershomb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I think this is a very good point being made. We should disengangle<br>
the installer question from the “getting started” question. Someone<br>
on reddit even proposed having two seperate pages entirely.<br>
<br>
A getting started page that promoted a stack centric workflow for<br>
beginners as a good “default path” would be reasonable in my eyes, and<br>
certainly worth discussing. Certainly if it let us lay the downloads<br>
page to rest with a single option for a minimal installer (with<br>
perhaps slightly different branding as discussed on a ticket I linked<br>
earlier — “Haskell Toolchain” or the like) that provided ghc, stack<br>
and cabal all, then I think that would be a very good way to go.<br>
<br>
That way Nicolas and others who wanted to direct people to the<br>
downloads page, and then wanted to teach them with one sort of<br>
approach would be able to do so, people who wanted to direct people to<br>
the downloads page, and teach them with a stack-based approach would<br>
be able to do so, and people coming to the site directly could<br>
immediately find a “getting started page” with a single approach that<br>
got them up and running quickly, and that approach could well be<br>
stack-oriented if that’s what people think gives the best experience<br>
for that particular use case.<br>
<br>
(Again, I give the caveat I’m speaking just for myself here, and<br>
thinking this through as an idea I’d like to hear others’ thoughts<br>
on).<br>
<br>
—gershom<br>
<br>
<br>
On August 31, 2016 at 5:48:41 PM, Nicolas Wu (<a href="mailto:nicolas.wu@gmail.com" target="_blank">nicolas.wu@gmail.com</a>) wrote:<br>
> Hi Paolo,<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:53 PM Paolo Giarrusso<br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> > > The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should<br>
> > be<br>
> > > open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both<br>
> > > have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other.<br>
> ><br>
> > I'm honestly confused what you're arguing. You say this decision isn't<br>
> > for beginners, yet you propose offering the HP. So how should a<br>
> > beginner install a package without first deciding whether to use<br>
> > cabal-install or stack? Or can a beginner meaningfully be expected to<br>
> > learn using both alternatives?<br>
> ><br>
><br>
> Sorry for not being clear, my bad. Hopefully I can clarify and elaborate a<br>
> bit more.<br>
><br>
> I think a beginner doesn't usually make the choice of how to use<br>
> GHC/stack/cabal by themselves; they are usually being instructed by someone<br>
> (or a resource) that has decided that for them. On that front I don't think<br>
> there's a singular best way to approach this; there's diversity in the way<br>
> people approach teaching and that's fine and healthy, there's also<br>
> diversity in the way people learn and the goals they have with the language<br>
> and that's fine and healthy too. We should be supporting people who want to<br>
> learn the language as well as people who want to contribute to teaching. We<br>
> should respect diversity in those roles; if someone wants their students to<br>
> use only stack then by all means they can do so, that shouldn't stop others<br>
> from using ghc or ghci directly.<br>
><br>
> For instance, if a beginner is just trying to run small examples they see<br>
> on a blog, then maybe all they need is a call to ghci. If they're learning<br>
> about making a simple binary they might want ghc. If they want to have a<br>
> whole managed project, perhaps they're after either stack or cabal. The<br>
> point is that they're usually guided by something, and those guides do<br>
> differ on what they prefer and recommend. The default download should<br>
> easily support these different modes of learning and teaching.<br>
><br>
><br>
> > Also, do both tools have their merits *for beginners*? We're talking<br>
> > of cabal as-is, not of the ongoing work on new-build.<br>
> ><br>
><br>
> I'm talking about having a default that bundles tools like ghc, cabal, and<br>
> stack, since these are the main tools our community has for compiling and<br>
> executing Haskell code. I don't want to force people into one of<br>
> these--whether that be students or educators. In all cases the default<br>
> download recommendation should support all of these since they are the<br>
> mainstream tools we use. To avoid confusion I think there should be only<br>
> one recommended option on the main download page (and here the HP minimal<br>
> seems to satisfy this, and stack seems to preclude this). The download page<br>
> should also have a link to other resources (such as the HP Full, stack<br>
> only, and other distributions like Haskell for Mac) on another page.<br>
><br>
> Since there seems to be confusion about how the committee comes to a<br>
> consensus I should note that at this point I'm only speaking for myself<br>
> here. This is just my recommendation, and I'm open and willing to listen to<br>
> other views before considering what I think is best. I am not usually<br>
> overtly vocal in these discussions, but I do read what is said and form my<br>
> own opinions.<br>
><br>
> Best wishes,<br>
><br>
> Nick<br>
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