<html><head></head><body><div><div><div><div>Dmiitri,<br/></div><div><br/></div><blockquote><div><span style="text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial;">This does sound very disappointing to me and I don't fully understand the needs.</span><br/></div></blockquote><div><br/></div><blockquote><div><span style="text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial;">I feel very confused about this situation. And again I feel like people the Haskell committees members are not willing to recognise other's people work and would rather rewrite everything from scratch instead of collaborating with existing projects created by people outside of committees.</span><br/></div></blockquote><div><div><br/></div><div>You're right. You <b>don't </b>fully understand my needs! You have not asked, and just assumed that what I want is exactly what you provide in `tomland`! I am looking at `toml` for a personal side project, not for official business, and I disagree with the existing choices, so I'd like to develop my own and saw a chance to make use of a namespace that was neglected for years on Hackage. This has nothing to do with any technical agenda or anything in my official capacity. <br/></div><div><br/></div><div>In my comments, I said the phrase "develop it into <b>a</b> standard" ("standard" as in "good", or of high quality make), not "<b>the</b> standard" as in the preferred choice. Multiple standards can exist. I have not said this is official, and I have not said this will be blessed. I have not even mentioned HF or its agendas, or my role in either. This does not preempt you or your libraries, nor does it make a statement about the quality of your work. <br/></div></div><div style="text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial;" class=""><div><br/></div></div><blockquote><div style="text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial;" class=""><div>* Why not open issues to tomland (or other libraries) and discuss the features you want? We maintain tomland for multiple years. The latest release was<span> <span class="sh-date">Feb 12 2021</span> </span>(a month ago!). We constantly improve the implementation, fix parsing issues, improve interface and error-handling. Attempting to rewrite all this from scratch instead of collaborating with existing maintainers feels very unfriendly.<br/></div></div><div style="text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial;" class="">* If you want to have the official TOML parsing library under the `toml` namespace on Hackage, again, why not ask the maintainers if they consider moving the library? And only after this discussion act accordingly.<br/></div><div style="text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial;" class="">* If you are concerned about the lack of people working on the `tomland` library (which I don't fully understand, because in Kowainik we always have at least two people maintaining packages), then why not ask to add as a maintainer, instead of rewriting another library? Or even ask to move to the official `haskell` organization on GitHub, if you want to have more people maintaining the official package.<br/></div></blockquote><ol><li>Because i have a feature set in mind that seems more appropriate for a new library.<br/></li><li>The maintainer (Spiros) has been inactive for 7 years. There is no maintainer listed or source repo available. We messaged Spiros last year, and received no response. I went through the proper channels to check that this was the right thing to do. However, I did not expect Tom Murphy to have been added to the maintainers list, which was a new development, and we'll work with each other to figure out a solution. <br/></li><li>This is putting words in my mouth. I have no concerns about the lack of people working on `tomland`. <br/></li></ol><blockquote><div class="" dir="ltr"><div>I mean, how am I supposed to feel motivated working on Haskell open-source projects, if my work can be just discarded at any time, the official library will be appointed without even communicating this desire? If I weren't subscribed to this thread, I probably wouldn't even know that something is going behind backs. We've put a lot of effort into tomland. We literally spent years of maintenance, UX improvements, bug fixes, writing tutorials and blog posts about the library and its implementation. And it is still not enough just to be respected and even give the chance to reply to the users needs?<br/></div></div></blockquote><div class="" dir="ltr"><div class=""><br/></div><div class=""><div>This is not an official project, so these points are moot. Instead of jumping to these conclusions, you could have asked me to clarify any points of contention you may have seen. I'm curious as to why you took this tack, and feel disrespected when `tomland` is the go-to TOML library in Haskell, and as you say, has been recognized outside of the community by the TOML org itself. We can take this offline though.I suspect you are bringing a ton of baggage into the conversation that was not a result of this thread. <br/></div><div><br/></div><div>- E</div><div><br/></div></div></div><div><br/></div></div><div><div style="display: none; border: 0px; width: 0px; height: 0px; overflow: hidden; visibility: hidden;"><img src="https://r.superhuman.com/msN8xsKE-k-E8Ai2tpSlKkrnaSAql6-I4CoEjFda_aJL6yU_C2MH4zoS7bJG7MCKkXE6xNpdnmaC4VqrJfJmr7L1yras0eD8ZViZi-_qD4u9ryk2U03-sWZCyRt3g4NmSODCheHtNOa1NQpb9Ow7Wp5DRPPaUIa9ewReO995UOmw7i3Df79qD__72LE.gif" alt=" " width="1" height="0" style="display: none; border: 0px; width: 0px; height: 0px; overflow: hidden; visibility: hidden;"/><!-- --></div><br/><div class="gmail_signature"></div></div><br/><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 8:10 AM, Dmitrii Kovanikov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kovanikov@gmail.com" target="_blank">kovanikov@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br/><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color" style="null" id="null"><div dir="ltr" class="sh-color-black sh-color">The TOML format is optimized for human-readability, not space efficiency. And it has some data redundancy, which makes it great for the application configuration use-case but not so great as a serialization format. If you are using TOML to serialise data or you need to parse 3-10 GB of application configuration, there's a chance that something can be improved without streaming TOML parsing.<div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">So streaming TOML parser looks like a very specific use-case that doesn't justify taking someone's package and making it the official TOML parser.</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">Best regards,</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">Dmitrii</div></div><br/><div class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"><div class="gmail_attr sh-color-black sh-color" dir="ltr">On Fri, 12 Mar 2021 at 12:40, Carter Schonwald <<a href="mailto:carter.schonwald@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">carter.<wbr/>schonwald@<wbr/>gmail.<wbr/>com</a>> wrote:<br/></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"><div dir="auto" class="sh-color-black sh-color">Hey Dmitrii,</div><div dir="auto" class="sh-color-black sh-color">I believe emily has in mind fully incremental streaming support. Which requires a wildly different internal architecture than all the stuff in the aeson inspired design family </div><div dir="auto" class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div dir="auto" class="sh-color-black sh-color"><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><a href="https://github.com/cartazio/streaming-machine-json" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https:/<wbr/>/<wbr/>github.<wbr/>com/<wbr/>cartazio/<wbr/>streaming-machine-json</a></div>Is an example of a constant space json parser with fully incremental consumption and emissions. </div><div dir="auto" class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div dir="auto" class="sh-color-black sh-color">An predecessor was used in a work prject 5 years ago and it could handle multi gig json monsters like a champ. I never released it to hackage because I want to have a better / more reusable design. Parsing the same 3-10gb json with aeson was impossible on a machine that had hundreds of gigs of ram. :) </div><div dir="auto" class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div dir="auto" class="sh-color-black sh-color">I believe emily has in mind similar levels of robustness </div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/><div class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"><div class="gmail_attr sh-color-black sh-color" dir="ltr">On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 7:08 AM Dmitrii Kovanikov <<a href="mailto:kovanikov@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">kovanikov@<wbr/>gmail.<wbr/>com</a>> wrote:<br/></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"><div dir="ltr" class="sh-color-black sh-color">Hi everyone,<div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">I feel extremely sad about this discussion for multiple reasons. But regarding the technical agenda:</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">> I'm going to look at `toml-parser` in the meantime, but no toml library does what I have in mind (namely a full fledged implementation of the spec, streaming, deriving etc.), nor do many of them provide bidirectional serialization save `tomland`.</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">This does sound very disappointing to me and I don't fully understand the needs. Because:</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">* tomland is the official TOML parsing library in Haskell according to the <a href="https://github.com/toml-lang/toml/wiki" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">TOML spec wiki</a></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">* tomland fully supports the spec version 0.5.0, and the latest spec 1.0.0 was published relatively recently. And to my knowledge, it is the only Haskell library that supports the latest spec.</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">* tomland is the most popular TOML parsing library according to <a href="https://packdeps.haskellers.com/reverse" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">reverse dependencies</a> on Hackage</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">* tomland is based on explicit values, but nevertheless it provides deriving via Generics</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">I feel very confused about this situation. And again I feel like people the Haskell committees members are not willing to recognise other's people work and would rather rewrite everything from scratch instead of collaborating with existing projects created by people outside of committees. Even outside the Haskell community (the TOML org), tomland was acknowledged as the official TOML library, but not in the Haskell community itself.</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">At least, the following steps could be taken first:</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">* Why not open issues to tomland (or other libraries) and discuss the features you want? We maintain tomland for multiple years. The latest release was <span class="sh-date" data-date-isostring="2021-02-12T05:00:00.000Z">Feb 12 2021</span> (a month ago!). We constantly improve the implementation, fix parsing issues, improve interface and error-handling. Attempting to rewrite all this from scratch instead of collaborating with existing maintainers feels very unfriendly.</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">* If you want to have the official TOML parsing library under the `toml` namespace on Hackage, again, why not ask the maintainers if they consider moving the library? And only after this discussion act accordingly.</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">* If you are concerned about the lack of people working on the `tomland` library (which I don't fully understand, because in Kowainik we always have at least two people maintaining packages), then why not ask to add as a maintainer, instead of rewriting another library? Or even ask to move to the official `haskell` organization on GitHub, if you want to have more people maintaining the official package.</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">I mean, how am I supposed to feel motivated working on Haskell open-source projects, if my work can be just discarded at any time, the official library will be appointed without even communicating this desire? If I weren't subscribed to this thread, I probably wouldn't even know that something is going behind backs. We've put a lot of effort into tomland. We literally spent years of maintenance, UX improvements, bug fixes, writing tutorials and blog posts about the library and its implementation. And it is still not enough just to be respected and even give the chance to reply to the users needs?</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">That sounds very concerning to me. I don' feel like Haskell tech can move forward if people's (specifically if they are not associated with any Haskell leaders) work is disrespected.</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color"><br/></div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">Best regards,</div><div class="sh-color-black sh-color">Dmitrii</div></div><br/><div class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"></div><div class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"><div class="gmail_attr sh-color-black sh-color" dir="ltr">On Fri, 12 Mar 2021 at 07:02, amindfv--- via Haskell-Cafe <<a href="mailto:haskell-cafe@haskell.org" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">haskell-cafe@<wbr/>haskell.<wbr/>org</a>> wrote:<br/></div></div><div class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"></blockquote></div><div class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color">On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 06:28:44AM +0000, Emily Pillmore wrote:<br/>
> Tom,<br/>
> <br/>
> Look, I don't want to debate syntax and semantics here, but "burning need/desire/ambition" etc ( <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/burning+desire" target="_blank">https:/<wbr/>/<wbr/>idioms.<wbr/>thefreedictionary.<wbr/>com/<wbr/>burning+desire</a> ) is an extremely common colloquialism that doesn't imply an emergency, just a strongly felt urge. I can't apologize for my wording, but I'm sorry for the situation nonetheless.<br/>
<br/>
I also don't want to debate semantics but I can tell you "I have a burning need" on a Hackage takeover has a different connotation of urgency than "I have a burning desire to write a toml parsing library and to have it be named 'toml'". I still feel duped and now condescended to as well. I do nonetheless appreciate your apology for the situation.<br/>
<br/>
> > <br/>
> > It's now seeming more just like a desire for the package name.<br/>
> > <br/>
> > <br/>
> <br/>
> I'm going to look at `toml-parser` in the meantime, but no toml library does what I have in mind (namely a full fledged implementation of the spec, streaming, deriving etc.), nor do many of them provide bidirectional serialization save `tomland`. To reiterate Carter's point, hackage names are a community resource, and they deserve to be thought through carefully, so yes, the package name is part of the request. I do alot of community service to make sure things that take up precious Hackage real-estate are treated well, which is why `toml` posed an opportunity.<br/>
<br/>
I'm actually open to the idea of using a simple name like "toml" for a best-in-class Haskell library, but I'd want to see proof that it is clearly the best in terms of implementation and adoption. I of course think my plans for toml parsing are the most wonderful, but if a consensus favorite package emerges and it's not mine I will step aside.<br/>
<br/>
> <br/>
> To that point, anything you put out is something I am interested in investing time and effort into making a standard. Do you have any code currently, or is this a TODO on your list? Going through your hackage libraries, I see no source repository listings, issue trackers, or even an email to reach you by.<br/>
<br/>
I do have code, yes. As mentioned earlier I'm in the middle of a rewrite. If there's more to discuss maybe we should move this conversation off-list as it's no longer about a package takeover?<br/>
<br/>
Tom<br/>
<br/></blockquote></div><div class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote sh-color-black sh-color">
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