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<p class="MsoNormal">No problem! My original comment was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek (as maybe was Branimir’s response?). My website (IMHO) is way beyond trivial, and was probably up and running after a mere 6 months! (I’d never built a website before,
or used e.g. GitHub, Docker, Ubuntu, AWS, etc, so they were all a bit of a challenge too).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anyway, enough of this. If anyone does have comments on the page, it would probably be best to add them on the discussion page alongside the article (now
<a href="https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Davjam2:Example/StateMonad">here</a>).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Unless there are any strong objections, I’ll overwrite the main page with the reworked one in a week or so, and I’ll be doing some final reviewing and tweaking of the page in the meantime. (And thanks to Bryan and Hilco for their comments).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0cm"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:tom.smeding@gmail.com">Tom Smeding</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>29 September 2020 14:46<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:haskell-cafe@haskell.org">haskell-cafe@haskell.org</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Haskell-cafe] Proposed "Restructuring" of State Monad page in Haskell Wikibooks</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Branimir wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">> Two years is not enough to do anything serious in Haskell. That is beyond demo programs.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This statement carries a lot of assumptions, some of which may be true in this case, some of which may not -- I don't know David James -- but I think it isn't good to let this statement stand on its own like that.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If a student who has never programmed before starts learning Haskell, they will not be able to succeed professionally after just two years unless they have other useful background knowledge and/or talent (let's not discuss whether talent
is a thing or not). However, the email by David James did not sound like he is a beginner in the act of programming; indeed, with experience in imperative (C++, VB), declarative (SQL), functional (Lisp) and logic (Prolog) programming languages, that certainly
does not count as "has never programmed before". And I think we can agree that someone with sufficient experience in programming at large can learn to use Haskell effectively in two years (which is quite a long time, even if it's irregular practice). At least,
I strongly believe this until proven otherwise. If that is indeed not the case, then something is seriously wrong on Haskell's side, as Gregory has noted below.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">David: I haven't read your rewritten State monad tutorial, for which my apologies; also apologies for kind of derailing this thread.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers, and have a great day,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Tom Smeding<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">P.S. This message wasn't accepted by the mailing list earlier, so was just sent to some people personally. Sorry for duplicate emails.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 at 15:14, Gregory Guthrie <<a href="mailto:guthrie@miu.edu" target="_blank">guthrie@miu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">If this is true, Haskell will probably never move up into even the top 40 of used languages, which would be too bad! And it would be interesting to see why –
certainly people find good productivity in the mainstream IP languages in even 6-9 months.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> (Look at salaries from bootcamp placements.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Currently Haskell is significantly below Cobol, Fortran, Lisp, and Pascal in the language usage/ratings. :-(<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Dr. Gregory Guthrie<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Maharishi International University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Haskell-Cafe <<a href="mailto:haskell-cafe-bounces@haskell.org" target="_blank">haskell-cafe-bounces@haskell.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Branimir Maksimovic<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 29, 2020 7:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:haskell-cafe@haskell.org" target="_blank">haskell-cafe@haskell.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Haskell-cafe] Proposed "Restructuring" of State Monad page in Haskell Wikibooks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Two years is not enough to do anything seroius in Haskell. That is beyond demo programs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Greets, Branimir.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">On 9/28/20 6:37 PM, David James wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Hello – I’m proposing to restructure
<a href="https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Understanding_monads/State" target="_blank">
this</a>, and I have a draft <a href="https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Davjam2:Example/StateMonad" target="_blank">
here</a>. I’ve given my main reasons for the restructuring at the top of the draft page.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">I’d very much like feedback before updating the real page, especially if people don’t like the new one much.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">I’m new here, so should probably say a bit about myself. I’ve been learning-by-doing Haskell for about two years. Sometimes I feel I’m starting to get it, but
these feelings don’t usually last long. I’m certainly not an expert, and don’t have a PhD in Very Clever Things. I do have quite an extensive IT background, originally programming in Lisp and Prolog, then (sadly) C++, VB and SQL but have had quite a long break
from programming (doing dumb things like architecting systems and project managing) before looking at Haskell. I built
<a href="https://decimos.net/" target="_blank">this website</a> and <a href="https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MapWith" target="_blank">
this library</a>, just for my own amusement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Apologies if this isn’t the right place to send this. (But then where is?) I’ve already put a note on the page itself about the new draft, but I’ve no idea whether
anyone will notice it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks very much,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">David.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">Haskell-Cafe mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<pre><span lang="EN-US">Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.8pt">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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