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<p>I think that one thing that's come up repeatedly but seems to not
be getting enough attention is this:</p>
<p>The existence of (any number of) simpler ways to install the
software is entirely moot in terms of the new-user experience if
the typical new user is unaware of them. In short, when
considering attracting new users to the platform, the ONLY method
is whatever the download-for-Windows instructions on haskell.org
displays. All other methods do not exist.</p>
<p>This is where I think some of the sense of elitism can come from:
A lot of responses assume that everybody at every level of
exposure has full access to all the knowledge embodied in the
community. Furthermore, the goals as they were laid out early in
the discussion (make it easy to have multiple versions installed
at the same time, make it easy to update the components
separately) are things that matter only to experienced Haskell
developers, not new users, and those experiences Haskell
developers are both more likely to know about alternate methods
available and more likely to be able to manage to figure this
stuff out on their own. <br>
</p>
<p>Given that, I believe basically the complaint (and I'm here
paraphrasing for others, so correct me if I'm wrong) is that the
method that appears front and centre on the download-for-Windows
instructions on haskell.org should always be the simplest method
for entirely new users with minimal-to-zero knowledge of Haskell
to use. (Of course, there's no harm in having a link to "advanced"
instructions for those that want them.) </p>
<p>Think about Python, as an example of a language that has
tremendous outreach, is often recommended as a great first
language to learn, and garners new adherents daily. If you go to
Python.org and mouse over "Downloads", it says "Download for
Windows" and there's a single button labelled "Python 3.8.2"
clicking that gives you an executable installer that you run,
click next a bunch of times, and you're done. They don't even
bother asking if you want 32 or 64 bit up-front. It's as easy as
installing a game. Anyone who's used Python knows that there are
myriad other ways of getting and updating it, myriad other
components you can also install, etc., etc. But that's left to
advanced instructions or for people who know where to find those
resources. The core "get you started as a new user" experience is
something that anybody can navigate trivially. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2020-04-27 5:30 a.m., Adam wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHVMtHZaN=ir7GG_duMFJPmMzwJuYHKRu1=_=0tpn8MFMHYGZA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi Anthony,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'll quickly say that I don't approve of the tone of your
email; it is needlessly inflammatory ("abhorrence", really?),
and indeed incorrect: PowerShell _is_ a standard Windows tool
as already addressed in this email chain. I personally don't
like it as a tool, but that doesn't make it any less standard.
With that said, I'll move on:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you're not a fan of Chocolately (me either!) there's
another tool called Scoop that gives you a package manager for
Windows but avoids global installation. If on the other hand
you're simply not a fan of package managers in Windows, see
Richard O'Keefe and Mikhail Glushenkov's replies regarding
installing Stack/Cabal respectively in a more direct fashion.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do think you highlight an important oversight that I
think is especially important for new users: each additional
step required before having a working Haskell environment will
exponentially reduce the number of people exposed to the
language in a meaningful and helpful way - it's a problem of
UX more than technology, but a very important problem
nonetheless.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Richard O'Keefe mentioned using Stack, which I find is a
very easy route to running Haskell as it gets the compiler
and (helpfully) restricts the package list to packages that
interoperate, thus allowing students new to the language to
avoid any superfluous problems while trying to focus on
learning. <a
href="https://tech.fpcomplete.com/haskell/get-started/windows"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://tech.fpcomplete.com/haskell/get-started/windows</a>
should have you covered. In an ideal world we wouldn't need
even that extra Stack step in between plain Windows and
Windows+Haskell, but that ideal world would be ignoring the
meta-problem of package compatibility that can be thorny, so
it seems like a decent trade for now. What are your thoughts
on this?</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With regards GHC error messages versus Hugs I'm not
familiar with the latter, but do struggle with the former,
especially when compared to other (albeit simpler) languages
like Elm. I recently saw an article on a (fairly recent?)
capability to tune the error messages that GHC emits: <a
href="https://kodimensional.dev/type-errors"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://kodimensional.dev/type-errors</a>
- and I hope that as more people take this on the ecosystem as
a whole will become a bit friendlier and easier for me to
understand :) I wonder whether Hugs was able to emit
friendlier errors because the language was simpler then, or
whether it's just that we're in an inconvenient time
in-between having both a more powerful set of
abstractions/inference and having human readable errors!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One thing I find that helps whenever an error message has
type variables in it (`a1` etc.) is to enable `{-# LANGUAGE
ScopedTypeVariables #-}` and tell the compiler what I _think_
the type should be in a few instances, and that tends to iron
out my misunderstandings.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>Adam<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 at 01:23,
Anthony Clayden <<a
href="mailto:anthony_clayden@clear.net.nz"
moz-do-not-send="true">anthony_clayden@clear.net.nz</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">Remember GHC's motto is 'avoid success at all
costs'. Then naturally it is prohibitively difficult to get
to use GHC.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">For students/people who you want to encourage
to love Haskell, especially on Windows,</div>
<div dir="auto">I'm astonished you're not using Hugs,
especially WinHugs (2-click install).</div>
<div dir="auto">Despite being over a dozen years unsupported
it is still orders-of-magnitude more friendly than GHC,</div>
<div dir="auto"> and has plenty of functionality (in Hugsmode)
for undergraduate level. </div>
<div dir="auto">What's more Haskell from the intro texts just
works on it;</div>
<div dir="auto">whereas GHC throws all sorts of obscure
advanced type errors.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I don't think powershell is a 'standard tool'.
I use mostly Windows machines,</div>
<div dir="auto">I'm aware of powershell, I've never used it.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Chocolatey is an abhorence. Fortunately I've
never had to use it;</div>
<div dir="auto">I don't know why GHC would inflict it on
anybody.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Increasingly, GHC HQ is a cult/elite that
doesn't want any new members.</div>
<div dir="auto">The difficulties in trying to use GHC just
show how exclusive it has become.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">AntC</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">> I appreciate that these things are standard tools for Windows
developers, but it's worth noting how much harder it can make things
for completely new people (either new developers or new to Windows).
> At the start of the year, I prepared install instructions for university
students who would be using Haskell as part of a first year CS
course. We needed to use GHC 8.6.5 because certain libraries were not
available for GHC 8.8.x (their base upper bounds hadn't updated, which
ruled out haskell-dev), and tried to use Chocolatey as an experiment.
> It was remarkably tough to get students set up on their own machines. I
was planning on recommending the Haskell Platform installer for Semester
2 this year, and am disappointed to find that it no longer exists.
> If it becomes too hard for students to install Haskell on their own
Windows machines, it may become too hard for us to use Haskell as an
educational tool, and I'd consider that a tragedy.
</pre>
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