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--></style></head><body lang=RU link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Hello Alex!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>> </span>A small disclaimer: none of the members of our team has an academic background. We all have different backgrounds: C#, Java, Ruby, Python, C, even Perl if I am not mistaken. Yet we ended up with FP first, and then with Haskell.</p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>> </span>We have switched to Haskell from Scala, which _is_ a multi-paradigm language borrowing bits and pieces from other languages/paradigms and mixing them together. It is an enormously hard work to do it and for that, I very much respect </p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Oh, my 1<sup>st</sup> question will be: did you try Eta, Frege? May be I’m wrong but Eta should support Haskell libraries as well as Java ones? They allow you to use libraries from the both world...</span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>> </span>As a result, the language becomes overly complicated and less useful.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Yes, this is another side. You know, anything has several sides: good and bad...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>> </span>Your joke about how Haskell has been made misses one point: it was initially designed as a lazy language (at least as far as I know). Many features that Haskell has now are there because of laziness: if you want to be lazy, then you have to be pure, you have to sequence your effects, etc.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>True. Laziness makes Haskell unique. I think Haskell makes laziness so popular in modern languages although it was known long ago (as data in “infinite streams”, etc). I think, Miranda was lazy, so Haskell is lazy too </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB> And IMHO there was some lazy dialect of ML (may be, I’m not right).</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>> </span>"Let's defer lambda, name it IO and let's call it Monad" - this bit isn't even funny. Monad isn't IO. IO happens to be a monad (as many things do, List as an example), but monad isn't IO and has nothing to do with IO. A horse is classified as Mammal, but Mammal doesn't mean horse _at all_.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Sure. I mean, the need of side-effects (and firstly I/O) led to the monads.</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>> </span><span style='color:#212121'>In a context of a lazy language, you need to sequence your effects (including side effects), that's the first point. The second is that instead of disappearing from Haskell, monads (and other concepts) are making their way to other languages. Scala has them, F# has them, even C# has them (however indirectly). Try to take away List Monad from C# developers and they'll kill you ;)</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>Better IMHO to have less infrastructure code. Better is to hide all “machinery” in compiler.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>My point was that monads are workaround of Haskell problem, this was historically reason of their appearance. And if I have not such limitation in my language I don’t need any monads. What are the monad benefits in ML, for example? They are using in F#, but 1) comp. expressions are not monads but step forward, “monads++” and 2) they play different role in F#: simplifying of the code. And you <b>can</b> avoid them in all languages except Haskell. For example, Prolog can be “pure” and to do I/O without monads, also Clean can as well as F#. Monads have pros, sure, but they are not composable and workaround leads to another workaround – transformers. I’m not unique in my opinion: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvRD_LRaiRs">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvRD_LRaiRs</a> All of this looks like overengineering due to mentioned limitation. No such one in ML, F#. D has keyword “pure”, and didn’t introduce monads. Performance is very important feature of the language, that limitation is the reason #1 why Haskell has bad and unpredictable performance. “do”-block is not the same as “flat” block of C# statements and its performance is not the same. I can achieve Maybe effect with nullable+exceptions or ?-family operators, List with permutations/LINQ, guard with if+break/continue and to do it without sacrificing performance.. ListT/conduits – are just generators/enumerators. Benefit of monads IMHO is small, they are workaround of Haskell problem and are not needed in other languages. Sure, there are monads in Ocaml, Javascript, Python (as experimental libraries), but the reason is hype. Nobody will remember them after 5-10 years... <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Actually this is very-very subjective IMHHHHO </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>></span><span style='color:#212121'> Lenses and generic lenses help, so be it. But I don't think that anything prevents Haskell from having it, and I don't think that Haskell as a language needs a dramatic change as you depict to make it happen. Just a feature.</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>When I have legacy code, there are a lot of types which fields are not starting with “_” prefix, so I need to create lenses explicitly... “Infrastructure” code. What is the business value of such code: nothing. For non-Haskell programmer it looks like you try to solve non-existing problem </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB> (<i>very-very provocative point: all Haskell solutions looks very overengineering. The reason is: lambda-abstraction-only. When you try to build something big from little pieces then the process will be very overengineering. Imagine that the pyramids are built of small bricks</i>).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>> </span><span style='color:#212121'>I don't agree that operators are noise. You certainly can write Haskell almost without operators if you wish.</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>Here I’m agree with D. Knuth ideas of literature programming: if code can not be easy read and understand on the hard-copy then used language is not fine. Haskell code needs help from IDE, types hints, etc. And I often meet a case when somebody does not understand what monads are in “do” blocks. Also there are a lot of operators in different libraries and no way to know what some operator means (different libraries, even different versions have own set of operators). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>> </span><span style='color:#212121'>As for extensions, I think that many more should be just switched on by default.</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>+1</span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>> </span><span style='color:#212121'>You mean that conversion should happen implicitly? Thank you, but no, thank you. This is a source of problems in many languages, and it is such a great thing that Haskell doesn't coerce types implicitly. </span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>No... Actually, I have not idea what is better. Currently there are a lot of conversions. Some libraries functions expect String, another - Text, also ByteString, lazy/strict, the same with the numbers (word/int/integer). So, conversions happen often.</span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>></span><span style='color:#212121'> I don't understand this "no business value" statement. Value for which business? What does it mean "check types, no business value"? <br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>There are libraries which nothing do in run-time. Only types playing. Only abstractions over types. And somebody says: oh man, see how many libraries has Haskell. But you can compare libraries of Haskell, Java, C#, Javascript, Perl, Python </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif;color:#212121'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'> All libraries of Java, Python... have business value. Real-world functionality. Not abstract play with types. But more important point is a case with installed Agda </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif;color:#212121'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'> or alternative libraries which does the same/similar things. The reason is important: Haskell moves a lot of functionality to libraries which is not good design IMHO. This is the root of the problem. Better is to have one good solid library bundled with GHC itself (“batteries included”) and only specific things will live in libraries and frameworks. Monads and monads transformers are central thing in Haskell. They a located in libraries. There is standard parser combinators in GHC itself, but you will have in the same project another one (or more than 1!). Etc, etc...</span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Also installed GHC... Why is it so big!? IMHO it’s time to clear ecosystem, to reduce it to “batteries” </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='color:#212121'>> </span><span style='color:#212121'>And then it falls into a famous joke: "The problem with Open Source Software is YOU because YOU are not contributing" :) Meaning that if we want more good libs then we should write more good libs :)</span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Absolutely true </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 5:05 PM Paul <<a href="mailto:aquagnu@gmail.com">aquagnu@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>I understand that my points are disputable, sure, example, multi-pardigm Oz – dead </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB> Any rule has exceptions. But my point was that people don’t like elegant and one-abstraction languages. It’s my observation. For me, Smalltalk was good language (mostly dead, except Pharo, which looks cool). Forth – high-level “stack-around-assembler”, mostly dead (Factor looks abandoned, only 8<sup>th</sup> looks super cool, but it’s not free). What else? Lisp? OK, there are SBCL, Clojure, Racket... But you don’t find even Clojure in languages trends usually. APL, J – super cool! Seems dead (I don’t know what happens with K). ML, SML? By the way, Haskell role was to kill SML community, sure it is sad to acknowledge it, but it’s 100% true...</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>Haskell try to be minimalistic and IMHO this can lead to death. Joachim, I’m not talking “it’s good/it’s bad”, “multiparadigm is good” or else... I don’t know what is right. It’s my observations only. Looks like it can happen.</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>If we will look to Haskell history then we see strange curve. I’ll try to describe it with humour, so, please, don;t take it seriously </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Let’s be pure lambda fanatics!</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Is it possible to create a big application?</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Is it possible to compile and optimize it?!</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Let’s try...</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Wow, it’s possible!!! (sure, it’s possible, Lisp did it long-long ago).</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Looks like puzzle, can be used to write a lot of articles (there were articles about combinators, Jay/Cat/Scheme, etc, now there are a lot of Haskell articles – big interesting in academia. But IMHO academia interest to language can kill it too: Clean, Strongtalk, etc)</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Stop! How to do I/O? Real programming?!!</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Ohh, if we will wrap it in lambda and defer it to top level (main::IO ()), it will have I/O type (wrapper is hidden in type)</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Let’s call it... Monad!!</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Wow, cool! Works! Anybody should use monads! Does not your language have monads? Then we fly to you! (everybody forgot that monads are workaround of Haskell limitation and are not needed in another languages. Also they lead to low-performance code)</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>But how to compose them???!?!</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>We will wrap/unwrap, wrap/unwrap.. Let’s call it... transformers!!! “Monad transformers” – sounds super cool. Your language does not have “lift” operation, right? Ugh...</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>How to access records fields... How... That’s a question. ‘.’ - no! ‘#’ - no! Eureka! We will add several language extensions and voila!</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>To be continued... </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>I love Haskell but I think such curve is absolutely impossible in commercial language. With IT managers </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB> To solve problem in a way when solution leads to another problem which needs new solution again and reason is only to keep lambda-abstraction-only (OK, Vanessa, backpacks also </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😉</span><span lang=EN-GB>) Can you imagine that all cars will have red color? Or any food will be sweet? It’s not technical question, but psychological and linguistic. Why native languages are not so limited? They even borrow words and forms from another one </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>Haskell’s core team knows how better then me, and I respect a lot of Haskell users, most of them <u>helped me A LOT</u> (!!!). It’s not opinion even, because I don’t know what is a right way. Let’s call it observation and feeling of the future.</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>I feel: Haskell has 3 cases: 1) to die 2) to change itself 3) to fork to another language</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>How I see commercial successful Haskell-like language:</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>No monads, no transformers</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>There are dependent types, linear types</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>There are other evaluation models/abstractions (not only lambda)</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Special syntax for records fields, etc</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Less operators noise, language extensions (but it’s very disputable)</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Solve problems with numerous from/to conversions (strings, etc)</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Solve problems with libraries</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>Last point needs explanation:</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>There is a lot of libraries written to check some type concepts only, no any business value. Also there are a lot of libraries written by students while they are learning Haskell: mostly without any business value/abandoned</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>There is situation when you have alternative libraries in one project due to dependencies (but should be one only, not both!)</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Strange dependencies: I have installed Agda even! Why???!</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>IMHO problems with libraries and lambda-only-abstraction lead to super slow compilation, big and complex compiler.</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>So, currently I see (again, it’s my observation only) 2 big “camps”:</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Academia, which has own interests, for example, to keep Haskell minimalistic (one-only-abstraction). Trade-off only was to add language extensions but they fragmentizes the language</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:45.6pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-GB>Practical programmers, which interests are different from 1<sup>st</sup> “camp”</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>Another my observation is: a lot of peoples tried Haskell and switched to another languages (C#, F#, etc) because they cannot use it for big enterprise projects (Haskell becomes hobby for small experiments or is dropped off).</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>Joachim, I’m absolutely agreed that a big company can solve a lot of these problems. But some of them have already own languages (you can compare measure units in Haskell and in F#, what looks better...).</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>When I said about killer app, I mean: devs like Ruby not due to syntax but RoR. The same Python: sure, Python syntax is very good, but without Zope, Django, TurboGears, SQLAlchemy, Twisted, Tornado, Cheetah, Jinja, etc – nobody will use Python. Sure, there are exceptions: Delphi, CBuilder, for example. But this is bad karma of Borland </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB> They had a lot of compilers (pascal, prolog, c/c++, etc), but... On the other hand after reincarnation we have C# </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB> Actually all these are only observations: nobody knows the future.</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB> </span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><span lang=EN-GB>/Best regards, Paul</span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:jo@durchholz.org" target="_blank">Joachim Durchholz</a><br><b>Sent: </b>13 июля 2018 г. 21:49<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:haskell-cafe@haskell.org" target="_blank">haskell-cafe@haskell.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Haskell-cafe] Investing in languages (Was: What is yourfavourite Haskell "aha" moment?)</p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Am 13.07.2018 um 09:38 schrieb PY:</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> 1. Haskell limits itself to lambda-only. Example, instead to add other </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> abstractions and to become modern MULTI-paradigm languages,</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>"modern"?</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>That's not an interesting property.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>"maintainable", "expressive" - THESE are interesting. Multi-paradigm can </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>help, but if overdone can hinder it - the earliest multi-paradigm </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>language I'm aware of was PL/I, and that was a royal mess I hear.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> So, point #1 is limitation in </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> abstraction: monads, transformers, anything - is function. It's not </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> good.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Actually limiting yourself to a single abstraciton tool can be good. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>This simplifies semantics and makes it easier to build stuff on top of it.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Not that I'm saying that this is necessarily the best thing.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> There were such languages already: Forth, Joy/Cat, APL/J/K... Most of</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> them look dead.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Which proves nothing, because many multi-paradigm languages look dead, too.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> When you try to be elegant, your product (language) died.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Proven by Lisp... er, disproven.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> This is not my opinion, this is only my observation. People like </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> diversity and variety: in food, in programming languages, in relations, </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> anywhere :)</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Not in programming languages.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Actually multi-paradigm is usually a bad idea. It needs to be done in an </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>excellent fashion to create something even remotely usable, while a </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>single-paradigm language is much easier to do well.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>And in practice, bad language design has much nastier consequences than </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>leaving out some desirable feature.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> 2. When language has killer app and killer framework, IMHO it has more </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> chances. But if it has _killer ideas_ only... So, those ideas will be </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> re-implemented in other languages and frameworks but with more simple </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> and typical syntax :)</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>"Typical" is in the eye of the beholder, so that's another non-argument.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> It's difficult to compete with product, </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> framework, big library, but it's easy to compete with ideas. It's an </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> observation too :-)</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Sure, but Haskell has product, framework, big library.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>What's missing is commitment by a big company, that's all. Imagine </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Google adopting Haskell, committing to building libraries and looking </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>for Haskell programmers in the streets - all of a sudden, Haskell is </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>going to be the talk of the day. (Replace "Google" with whatever </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>big-name company with deep pockets: Facebook, MS, IBM, you name it.)</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> language itself is not argument for me.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>You are arguing an awful lot about missing language features </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>("multi-paradigm") to credibly make that statement.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> Argument for me (I </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> am usual developer) are killer apps/frameworks/libraries/ecosystem/etc. </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> Currently Haskell has stack only - it's very good, but most languages </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> has similar tools (not all have LTS analogue, but big frameworks are the </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>> same).</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Yeah, a good library ecosystem is very important, and from the reports I </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>see on this list it's not really good enough.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>The other issue is that Haskell's extensions make it more difficult to </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>have library code interoperate. Though that's a trade-off: The freedom </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>to add language features vs. full interoperability. Java opted for the </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>other opposite: 100% code interoperability at the cost of a really </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>annoying language evolution process, and that gave it a huge library </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>ecosystem.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>But... I'm not going to make the Haskell developers' decisions. If they </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>don't feel comfortable with reversing the whole culture and make </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>interoperability trump everything else, then I'm not going to blame </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>them. I'm not even going to predict anything about Haskell's future, </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>because my glass orb is out for repairs and I cannot currently predict </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>the future.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Regards,</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Jo</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>_______________________________________________</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Haskell-Cafe mailing list</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to:</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'><a href="http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe" target="_blank">http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe</a></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'>Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.</p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.6pt'> </p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:4.8pt'>_______________________________________________<br>Haskell-Cafe mailing list<br>To (un)subscribe, modify options or view archives go to:<br><a href="http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe" target="_blank">http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe</a><br>Only members subscribed via the mailman list are allowed to post.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>