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On 2017-03-10 01:19, Maksymilian Owsianny wrote:<br>
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<pre>The thing about this solution is, its simplicity. You can use the
skills of front end (HTML/CSS) people to design your GUI, you can then
build it using something like threepenny and render it to texture
using cef. You can use the skills and tools that already exist.
I agree that this solution is sub optimal, that including a whole
browser inside your application can be a bit much. But I believe that
at least having an option will be much better for the community then
not.
Cheers,
Max.
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<br>
Mhh… I get what you're getting at. But what can you really do with
HTML+CSS without scripts? Ok, admittedly you can do a lot via crude
tricks. You can create tabs, menus, pop-ups and loads of other stuff
with pseudo-classes and pseudo-elements if you really want. But your
average front-end-web-dev will not be used to using such tricks
because on the web, everything is JS. And such hacks are an abuse of
the tools anyway. So basically what you will get in practice with
HTML+CSS are static pages or forms that you have to tie together
somehow. So far so good, it's better than nothing. But we already
have a really great, convenient library for static "pictures" with
loads of existing back-ends – diagrams! Diagrams can even carry
generic queries that you could fill with stuff like FRP endpoints.
What's missing to fulfill your goal is a Parser that creates
diagrams from HTML+CSS – which, of course, is basically a variation
of one of the main purposes of a browser engine.<br>
<br>
While that brings me back to the beginning, it seems to open a
perspective for the future. Would you say it might be possible to
start with chromium integration and then push it out again bit by
bit by replacing it with the existing tools? For example would it be
possible in the mid-term to "only" use the chromium parser but not
the presentation layer, or vice-versa?<br>
<br>
I feel there might even be a hidden path to a solution to our core
web dev problems hidden here, but for now I fail to see specifics.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
MarLinn<br>
<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 11:53 PM,
MarLinn <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:monkleyon@gmail.com" target="_blank">monkleyon@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<p>[Ack. Forgot to reply-to-list, and ran into the
list's bad handling of gmail addresses again. So sorry
for possible multi-posts.]<br>
</p>
<span class="">
<p>I agree that our GUI story is still bad.</p>
<p>But I don't understand what chromium has to do with
either game dev or a good GUI story? If I want to
write a real game, I use <i>SDL2</i> bindings. If I
want to write a website, I use something like <i>Yesod</i>.
If I want to write browser games or "dynamic web
sites", I throw JavaScript libraries at the walls,
see what sticks, call it "modern coding", go to the
liquor store and reconsider my life.<br>
</p>
<p>All joking aside, it's nice to see someone take a
different path than usual, organization-wise. I do
disagree on the technical path though. We already
have a lot of bindings to several cross-platform
frameworks and libraries, including QT, GTK, FLTK,
and the aforementioned SDL2. But they suffer from
impedance mismatch and lack of use and thus,
community support. To solve that I would say what we
need is a nice middle layer to translate functional
thinking into framework models. We do have the <i>diagrams</i>
package for describing static diagrams in a
functional way, but it largely lacks dynamic
behavior. (There's some support for animations, but
it doesn't fill me with confidence.) We also have
several attempts at FRP libraries for dynamic
behavior, but few interactions with bindings. What
is still missing is something like a dynamic version
of <i>diagrams</i> that is based on one of these
FRP libraries and that can work with one or several
of the bindings as a back-end – possibly with a
Haskell-side widget library. Possibly with css-like
runtime styling And if we have that, yeah, we can
add chromium bindings or whatever. Or write our own
browser engine for fun. As far as I know there were
several attempts but all fizzled out at some point.<br>
</p>
My own favorite approach goes even further. I propose
that many of the problems arise because the existing
frameworks impose too many non-functional ideas, so
the "purest" way to go forward would be a fresh
framework on the basis of only <i>SDL</i> and <i>reactive
banana</i>. That might sound like overkill for a
simple non-game GUI, but is it really if the
alternative is a whole browser? And what's more, that
approach could be pursued in a way that might be
turned into the one mentioned above later on.<br>
<br>
What these approaches need is not more c tools or more
cross-platform shenanigans, but some ideas how to
handle a complex dynamic tangle of widget trees in a
generic, functional fashion. Which to me has the added
benefit of sounding much more like "fun". So I'm still
working on that second approach whenever I have some
time, but like yours, my time is limited.<br>
<br>
Be assured, I don't want to diminish your work, it's
probably useful to a certain subset of programmers.
What I'm disputing is just if it's the single best way
forward.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
MarLinn<br>
<br>
<div class="m_-8882571256972453389moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-03-09 22:52, Maksymilian Owsianny wrote:<br>
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<pre>Hey
I'm interested in making gamedev in haskell more viable and one thing
that I believe is missing in that part of the environment is a good
GUI story. So I decided to create proper bindings to cef3, you can
check out what I've done so far [here][1]. In this current version
I basically took the work done by Daniel Austin [here][2] split it
into parts to prevent my machine from dying from lack of memory and
packed it up with some nix glue for convenient usage. Now all this
doesn't look like much but it sill took me much more time then I'm
willing to admit in public. That's one of the eternal truths of
software development, that everything always takes an order of
magnitude more time then you suspect it would.
Anyway, what I would like to do here is add support for all platforms.
Create some nice scripts that help with automatizing building,
developing and deployment of code with this library for users.
Possibly write a script that automatically generates bindings from
c headers to bring this lib up to speed with the current version of
cef. Write some proper guides on using this lib for creating game GUI
or standalone desktop application. All of that is nice and well to
wish for but it is quite a lot of frankly not very fun work. If I had
to choose I would rather spend my time working on either something fun
or something that pays the rent, so usually at this point I stop and
walk away. But this time I decided to go about it differently, and ask
for community support. I have set up a BountySource campaign [here][3]
so I could focus on making this happen. Alternatively, if that's your
thing, I have set up a bitcoin address [4].
Depending on how well this campaign will go I'm also planing on
creating a full 2D game engine... but yeah, that's in the future.
So yeah, if you'd like to help me build this please support me.
Thanks,
Max.
[1]: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://github.com/haskell-ui/cef3-raw" target="_blank">https://github.com/haskell-ui/<wbr>cef3-raw</a>
[2]: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://github.com/fluffynukeit/bindings-cef3" target="_blank">https://github.com/<wbr>fluffynukeit/bindings-cef3</a>
[3]: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/haskell-ui" target="_blank">https://salt.bountysource.com/<wbr>teams/haskell-ui</a>
[4]: 1LskxSUyLDLpMCBfUUnqcRT8mEFMW5<wbr>11Eq
</pre>
<pre>PS. I have also created a reddit thread for this proposal <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/5yi1b7/cef3_bindings_and_game_dev_in_haskell/" target="_blank">here</a>.
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