<div dir="ltr"><div>I am still happy to drive this! I was not sure about whether we agreed as a Committee on pushing this.</div><div><br></div><div>To make this more actionable, my goal is, <b>during next Sunday</b>, to create a new proposal with the <b>criteria</b> (based on Richard + Simon's list), and a preliminary assessment of which of the <b>current extensions</b> satisfy these criteria, and for those we might be willing to grant <b>exceptions</b>.</div><div><br></div><div>Please raise your voice if you think we should proceed otherwise (or if you think we should not proceed at all!).</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alejandro<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mar., 29 sept. 2020 a las 16:29, Richard Eisenberg (<<a href="mailto:rae@richarde.dev">rae@richarde.dev</a>>) escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">What's the status of this push? I was delighted to see that Alejandro volunteered to be a motive force on this idea, and have thus refrained (as I am pushing on other ideas, too). But I also don't want this to die. :)<div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div>Richard<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Sep 17, 2020, at 11:39 AM, Alejandro Serrano Mena <<a href="mailto:trupill@gmail.com" target="_blank">trupill@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div>I agree with using the criteria that Richard posted + the addition by Simon. Just in case somebody hadn't looked at the wiki, the criteria would be:</div><div><ol><li><p>The extension is (mostly) conservative: All programs that were
accepted without the extension remain accepted, and with the same
meaning.</p>
</li><li><p>New failure modes that become possible with the extension are rare
and/or easy to diagnose. (These failure modes include new error
messages, wrong inferred types, and runtime errors, for example.)</p>
</li><li><p>The extensions complement the design of standard Haskell. (This one seems the most subjective.)</p>
</li><li><p>The extension has been -- and can reasonably be predicted to remain -- stable.</p>
</li><li><p>The extension is not to gate-keep an advanced or potentially-unsafe feature.</p></li><li>The extension is widely-used.</li></ol><div>For example, should we add to (6) "in current developments"? What about things like "EmptyDataDecls", which are just straightforward generalizations of what Haskell 2010 already allows, although in practice the only data type you would ever need to be empty is "Void"?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Alejandro<br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El jue., 17 sept. 2020 a las 16:42, Simon Marlow (<<a href="mailto:marlowsd@gmail.com" target="_blank">marlowsd@gmail.com</a>>) escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I think there should be some requirement that an extension be widely-used (for some suitable definition of that), before we ratify it in GHC2020. Some of the extensions that made it past the first round of filtering are not widely-used, and would be therefore probably be controversial additions to a language standard - e.g. ViewPatterns, ParallelListComp, RecursiveDo to name a few that I noticed straight off. I think it's a good idea to be conservative here.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Simon<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 10:29, Spiwack, Arnaud <<a href="mailto:arnaud.spiwack@tweag.io" target="_blank">arnaud.spiwack@tweag.io</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>There seems to be some question about who should drive this debate. But there is something we all seem to agree on: it is our role, as the steering committee, to announce the criteria by which we intend to judge the reasonableness of each potential candidate extension.</div><div><br></div><div>So, let me suggest that we start discussing that, and move back to how this discussion ought to be driven when we are a bit clearer on the criteria.</div><div><br></div><div>Richard wrote a bunch of criteria in the wiki page upthread [1]. I think that they are worthy of discussion. So let me ask the question: do we agree with all these criteria? do we want to add more?<br></div><div><br></div><div>[1]: <a href="https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/wiki/GHC2020" target="_blank">https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/wiki/GHC2020</a></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 12:17 PM Alejandro Serrano Mena <<a href="mailto:trupill@gmail.com" target="_blank">trupill@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I would rather make the process Committee-driven, because otherwise it may derail into too many micro-discussions. I think it's better to start a conversation saying "this is our proposal, here are our criteria, here are the exceptions we want to make", and then discuss from there.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alejandro<br></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mar., 8 sept. 2020 a las 14:01, Eric Seidel (<<a href="mailto:eric@seidel.io" target="_blank">eric@seidel.io</a>>) escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr">I think we may want to have the Committee initiate and drive the process. I think a GHC20XX proposal will turn into a bunch of micro proposals and discussions about individual (groups of) extensions, and it will be hard to track all of the threads of discussion in a single GitHub thread. We’ve dealt with long and contentious discussions before, but they were much more focused than GHC20XX will be, by design. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I suggested earlier that an alternative strategy could be to open a new repo where the community can collaborate on GHC20XX via a familiar PR-based process, with each proposed group of extensions getting its own PR and discussion. There are a few open questions here though. When/how do we decide that it’s time for a new standard? How do we decide when the full proposal is ready for review? Do we need to review and sign off on each group of extensions separately or only the final product?</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">This process would be a lot more work for us, so I’m happy to try the usual process first, and I’ll be happy to be proved wrong. But we should be prepared to step in and add some more structure if needed.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Regardless, the first step should be to update our docs to express interest in GHC20XX proposals, establish criteria for including language extensions, and outline a process for submitting them. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Eric<br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Sep 8, 2020, at 06:37, Simon Peyton Jones <<a href="mailto:simonpj@microsoft.com" target="_blank">simonpj@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span>Personally I don’t think we should make the Steering Committee responsible for initiating or driving this. We should<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li style="margin-left:2.25pt"><span>establish the criteria (including some idea of how frequently we’d be open to creating a new GHCxx version),
<u></u><u></u></span></li><li style="margin-left:2.25pt"><span>express open-ness to a proposal, and then
<u></u><u></u></span></li><li style="margin-left:2.25pt"><span>review proposals when/if they materialise.
<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span>It’d be fine for Alejandro, as an individual, to be a proposer. But that’s different from making the committee
<i>responsible</i>. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span>What do others think?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span>Simon<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue;border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style="border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Alejandro Serrano Mena <<a href="mailto:trupill@gmail.com" target="_blank">trupill@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 08 September 2020 09:13<br>
<b>To:</b> Simon Peyton Jones <<a href="mailto:simonpj@microsoft.com" target="_blank">simonpj@microsoft.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Richard Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:rae@richarde.dev" target="_blank">rae@richarde.dev</a>>; Eric Seidel <<a href="mailto:eric@seidel.io" target="_blank">eric@seidel.io</a>>; <a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
Dear all,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
I would really like to move this forward, and I would be happy to put some work on it.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
What do you think of the following plan?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
- Create a ghc-proposal based on the (awesome) wiki page by Richard. I think the criteria in the wiki are quite nice. Explain that one of the goals is to encompass as many stable extensions as possible.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
- Reformat the list to make 3 tables: one for extensions which satisfy all 5 criteria, one for extensions we want to include even if they don't, and one for those which should be rejected in the light of those criteria.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
If the process works well, we could think about instaurating a yearly/bi-yearly/n-yearly process to create new -XGHC20XX versions.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
Alejandro<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
<u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
El lun., 7 sept. 2020 a las 17:32, Simon Peyton Jones via ghc-steering-committee (<<a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a>>) escribió:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6pt;margin-left:0cm">
Just back from holiday. Some thoughts<br>
<br>
* I don’t think this mailing list is the best place for the<br>
discussion. Basically, it's a GHC Proposal, so someone (possibly<br>
a committee member, possibly not) should write a proposal,<br>
and we should put it through the process.<br>
<br>
* We should advertise the criteria, as Richard has done on the<br>
wiki page.<br>
<br>
* Any such proposal should be informed by data. Notably, extension usage<br>
in Hackage, or perhaps Stackage (since it's a bit more curated).<br>
<br>
* A proposer might also want to run a public poll, as an additional<br>
source of data<br>
<br>
* When it comes to the committee, we can (I guess) vote on individual<br>
extensions, rather than just accept/reject the whole thing.<br>
<br>
I am intrigued by the idea of using Kialo to coordinate discussion.<br>
Maybe it'd work better than GitHub? Are there other alternatives?<br>
But that's orthogonal to the GHC 2020 idea; let's not conflate them.<br>
<br>
Simon<br>
<br>
| -----Original Message-----<br>
| From: ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee-<br>
| <a href="mailto:bounces@haskell.org" target="_blank">bounces@haskell.org</a>> On Behalf Of Richard Eisenberg<br>
| Sent: 02 September 2020 14:57<br>
| To: Eric Seidel <<a href="mailto:eric@seidel.io" target="_blank">eric@seidel.io</a>><br>
| Cc: <a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a><br>
| Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] GHC 2020<br>
| <br>
| It seems clear that my wiki idea isn't winning the day -- I never<br>
| really liked it either. I'd be fine with either Eric's or Joachim's<br>
| approaches. Maybe start with Joachim's approach and then use Eric's<br>
| when Joachim's runs out of steam? A big minus, though, to Joachim's<br>
| approach is that it seems hard to get good community involvement.<br>
| <br>
| Richard<br>
| <br>
| > On Sep 2, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Eric Seidel <<a href="mailto:eric@seidel.io" target="_blank">eric@seidel.io</a>> wrote:<br>
| ><br>
| > Opening a regular discussion about whether and how we want to work on<br>
| GHC 2020 sounds fine, that will also give the community a place to<br>
| weigh in. I do think the eventual contents should be informed by the<br>
| community though, it shouldn’t just be us working alone.<br>
| ><br>
| > Sent from my iPhone<br>
| ><br>
| >> On Sep 2, 2020, at 03:16, Joachim Breitner <mail@joachim-<br>
| <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbreitner.de%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cfaa7b2a148fd4381512c08d853cf0a81%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637351495986435664&sdata=Vfd5PeSlx%2FqLuT96wFjzBj0%2FVPgXrNqH%2FMgSj8g2QiM%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
breitner.de</a>> wrote:<br>
| >><br>
| >> Hi,<br>
| >><br>
| >> sounds plausible. It would also allow us to use tags to easily<br>
| indicate<br>
| >> the status (e.g. clearly-not, definitely-yes, kinda-contested…), and<br>
| >> then filter by issue to get the current list…<br>
| >><br>
| >> But before we go there, shouldn’t we maybe have a discussion first<br>
| on<br>
| >><br>
| >> * do we even want that?<br>
| >> * what are the abstract criteria (or guidelines)?<br>
| >> * what is the process?<br>
| >><br>
| >> I believe that discussion could be done like any other proposal.<br>
| >><br>
| >><br>
| >> As for the process; when I brought up the idea, I was worried about<br>
| us<br>
| >> spending huge resources discussion individual extensions to death,<br>
| and<br>
| >> proposed, in the interest of efficiency and getting things done:<br>
| >><br>
| >>> The process could be: Every member can nominate any number of<br>
| >>> extensions, to include, maybe a small rationale and then we do one<br>
| >>> round of independent approval voting, requiring a supermajority to<br>
| >>> really only pick uncontested extensions.<br>
| >><br>
| >> So instead of long debates, we start with GHC2020 being just those<br>
| >> extensions that a supermajority on the committee considers to be ok.<br>
| >><br>
| >> This is much more lightweight process that we could get done in a<br>
| week<br>
| >> or two (maybe using a doodle-like voting page). Maybe we would leave<br>
| >> out one or two extension that initially people are reserved about,<br>
| but<br>
| >> could be swayed after lengthy discussions. But is that worth the<br>
| >> lengthy discussion?<br>
| >><br>
| >> cheers,<br>
| >> Joachim<br>
| >><br>
| >> --<br>
| >> Joachim Breitner<br>
| >> <a href="mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de" target="_blank">mail@joachim-breitner.de</a><br>
| >><br>
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| >> _______________________________________________<br>
| >> ghc-steering-committee mailing list<br>
| >> <a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a><br>
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| > _______________________________________________<br>
| > ghc-steering-committee mailing list<br>
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