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<p class="MsoNormal">But: if you agree (and it sounds like you do) that the proposal's text is definitive, I can update the text above to try to iron out these potential sources of confusion.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Yes I do. Please do! And, it’s terribly late in the day, but if anyone wants to raise a new issue, please do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I do wonder about explicitly calling out the possibility of having (a) the syntactic sugar of this proposal with (b) no overloading. So that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> r.x desugars to (x r)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> e { x = e2 } desugars to case e of K { .. } -> K { x=e2, .. }<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">or something like that. That is strictly beyond what the proposal currently does, which is to *<b>always</b>* use setField/getField. But that means that for records with polymorphic fields you
simply can’t use the proposal at all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Simon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Richard Eisenberg <rae@richarde.dev>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 31 March 2020 13:52<br>
<b>To:</b> Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj@microsoft.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Simon Marlow <marlowsd@gmail.com>; Neil Mitchell <ndmitchell@gmail.com>; ghc-steering-committee <ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org>; Joachim Breitner <mail@joachim-breitner.de>; Shayne Fletcher <shayne.fletcher@daml.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ghc-steering-committee] Record dot syntax: vote results<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 31, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Simon Peyton Jones <<a href="mailto:simonpj@microsoft.com">simonpj@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">What features of the proposal document are actually a part of the proposal?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Well, all of it! <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Good -- that's very clear, then. And it had been clear for some time (to me) -- it's just that I find it disagrees with the proposed text on the document, which reads:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">> The proposal is entirely about syntax; and specifically about<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> introducing the form `r.x` for record field selection. No changes<br>
to the type system, or any other aspect of the language, are<br>
proposed. The original proposal was more elaborate, providing ways<br>
to update fields as well as set them, but was simplified to focus on<br>
the essentials.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If we look at the proposal (<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fshayne-fletcher-da%2Fghc-proposals%2Fblob%2Frecord-dot-syntax%2Fproposals%2F0000-record-dot-syntax.md%23211-syntax&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cabd695271d33488b3a5008d7d5725f2c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637212559520732428&sdata=ET%2BCsjDS8EjsUysIIqvE9%2F5OvA1EVnI91kvjbHqy2Nc%3D&reserved=0">https://github.com/shayne-fletcher-da/ghc-proposals/blob/record-dot-syntax/proposals/0000-record-dot-syntax.md#211-syntax</a>),
we see a range of syntactic transformations. One of these repurposes record-update syntax, and assigns it new typing rules. To me, this changes the type system. Some of these rules propose new ways to update fields. (I see now you were thinking of the fact
that syntax like `+=` has been abandoned. That's true, but I read the text above is referring to record-update.) So my reading of the rules leads to a different picture than the text above.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">But: if you agree (and it sounds like you do) that the proposal's text is definitive, I can update the text above to try to iron out these potential sources of confusion.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Richard<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">There are two pretty much orthogonal things going on<o:p></o:p></p>
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Syntax for record selection r.x; this proposal<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
Using overloading to resolve duplicate record labels, via getField/setField<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It’s true (2) pretty much precludes selection/update for records with polymorphic fields (unless we have impredicativity, which I think we should ignore for now). That has always been true.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If you don’t want (2) then (1) is still useful. Maybe the proposal should have different desugaring rules with and without OverloadedRecordFields. That would be an additional box in the matrix, which I suppose we might want to fill
in.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Including Shayne and Neil in this conversation.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Simon<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US">Richard Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:rae@richarde.dev">rae@richarde.dev</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>31 March 2020 12:37<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Simon Marlow <<a href="mailto:marlowsd@gmail.com">marlowsd@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Simon Peyton Jones <<a href="mailto:simonpj@microsoft.com">simonpj@microsoft.com</a>>; Neil Mitchell <<a href="mailto:ndmitchell@gmail.com">ndmitchell@gmail.com</a>>; ghc-steering-committee <<a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a>>;
Joachim Breitner <<a href="mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de">mail@joachim-breitner.de</a>>; Shayne Fletcher <<a href="mailto:shayne.fletcher@daml.com">shayne.fletcher@daml.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [ghc-steering-committee] Record dot syntax: vote results</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Quoting from the document:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">> The proposal is entirely about syntax; and specifically about<br>
introducing the form `r.x` for record field selection. No changes<br>
to the type system, or any other aspect of the language, are<br>
proposed. The original proposal was more elaborate, providing ways<br>
to update fields as well as set them, but was simplified to focus on<br>
the essentials.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Is this fact enshrined in the proposal document? I view that as ground truth. And it describes, e.g., that (e { field = val }) now means (setField ...), which means that polymorphic record update is incompatible with -XRecordDotSyntax.
What features of the proposal document are actually a part of the proposal?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Otherwise, I am happy with the tone and content of the post.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Richard<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 31, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Simon Marlow <<a href="mailto:marlowsd@gmail.com">marlowsd@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 11:08, Simon Peyton Jones via ghc-steering-committee <<a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Thanks Joachim.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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Everyone: I have extended our choices document with a draft post to the Github thread.<br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1MgovHRUUNjbuM4nM8qEe308MfbAYRh2Q8PxFHl7iY74%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cabd695271d33488b3a5008d7d5725f2c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637212559520742428&sdata=W4hHo9WZaOANfbjfI9DOE5zwAgyAm%2BJjcKBrcLV8Dyw%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MgovHRUUNjbuM4nM8qEe308MfbAYRh2Q8PxFHl7iY74/edit?usp=sharing</a><br>
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Can you review it, for both tone and content? You have edit permission, so by all means improve the wording. Look for omissions. I want to bring the discussion to a close, not re-ignite further debate, but be respectful of those who disagree.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Before we accept the proposal I think we should have a precise description of the changes to the syntax. For example, we don't address the question of whether a field name
can be an operator or not. We explicitly left these questions until later; wouldn't now be the right time to address them?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Also worth bringing up at this point, since we landed on C2a: Note 5 says<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">One mechanism for handling this is<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fshayne-fletcher-da%2Fghc-proposals%2Fblob%2Frecord-dot-syntax%2Fproposals%2F0000-record-dot-syntax.md%232322-parsing-of-field-selections&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cabd695271d33488b3a5008d7d5725f2c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637212559520752420&sdata=culW9AOiRxeFt0BhYpfHIfrPBdyG4Y%2Bnkd%2B4oWweoFA%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1155CC">given
in the proposal</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">. It involves no changes to the lexer, but instead an adjacency test one production of the parser.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I'm not sure about this as a language design. (1) it's an ad-hoc side-condition that can't be expressed in the lexical or context-free grammar (however there's precedent for
this kind of thing in the form of the layout rule of course), and (2) it's quite a costly feature in terms of implementation effort to add to the language, because your AST needs complete and accurate source-span information. We can do it in GHC, and haskell-src-exts
can do it nowadays, but earlier versions of haskell-src-exts before complete SrcSpanInfo was added wouldn't have been able to implement this rule. Arguably we're only accepting this as a GHC extension and not a Haskell extension in general, but as we know
GHC is the testbed for future language extensions, so it's a good time to consider these issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The alternative of course is to go with some variant of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Use the “tight infix” mechanism from<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc-proposals%2Fpull%2F229&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cabd695271d33488b3a5008d7d5725f2c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637212559520752420&sdata=UCCPvDoBPnWdYW6GvmVGA1RxMuXxJnuHMEB5qsbRMlY%3D&reserved=0"><span style="color:#1155CC">this
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">which is also an ad-hoc side-condition sadly, but could be implemented in the lexer. Nevertheless, all this needs to be nailed down before the proposal can be accepted, IMO.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Cheers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Simon</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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Could you do so this week, by end Friday? I propose to leave the votes recorded there, but when posting I'll move the post from the document (deleting it from there) to GitHub.<br>
<br>
I'm cc'ing Neil and Shayne, the authors. Neil, Shayne: I think (and desperately hope!) you'll be content with this outcome. Can you review my draft post too?<br>
<br>
Simon<br>
<br>
| -----Original Message-----<br>
| From: ghc-steering-committee <<a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee-bounces@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee-bounces@haskell.org</a>><br>
| On Behalf Of Joachim Breitner<br>
| Sent: 30 March 2020 17:48<br>
| To: ghc-steering-committee <<a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a>><br>
| Subject: Re: [ghc-steering-committee] Record dot syntax: vote results<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
| Dear Committe,<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
| thanks all for voting. The ranking of votes is now<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
| C2a > C2b > C4 > C1 > C7 > C6 > C3 > C5<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
| In particular C2a beats every other options by 7:4 or more, and is<br>
| therefore the result of this poll.<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
| You can see more statistics at<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cond" target="_blank">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cond</a><br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Forcet.vote%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Cabd695271d33488b3a5008d7d5725f2c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637212559520762414&sdata=qvWZwZHab3%2Bl%2FO%2B8NNhjQoUdkFZrnytynA6vhf%2BtRgA%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">orcet.vote</a>%2FVote%2FAB23CE70AC%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.c<br>
| om%7Ce27e9c8f455b436e2bee08d7d4ca3538%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7<br>
| C1%7C0%7C637211837260982595&sdata=LLWCxVjXxyLqcJUZ9iMgB%2B5QYGMuHFzJga<br>
| u9agTakiQ%3D&reserved=0<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
| So, does this conclude this saga?<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
| Cheers,<br>
| Joachim<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
| --<br>
| Joachim Breitner<br>
| <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de" target="_blank">mail@joachim-breitner.de</a><br>
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| 6e2bee08d7d4ca3538%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6372118372<br>
| 60982595&sdata=GE%2BBYN7rA7zWgwuKlArv4PR%2Fm3IlmZ7PqWbGpgXUyms%3D&<br>
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