<div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>+1 to Joachim's proposal.  Also, I wanted to thank him for handling this and for all his other excellent management of this process.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm somewhat pulled away from the Haskell space at the moment (working feverishly on a non-Haskell startup company during sabbatical), but I hope to reengage with you all more fully at a future time.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>  -Ryan</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 8:30 AM Richard Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:rae@cs.brynmawr.edu">rae@cs.brynmawr.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">Should we explicitly ask for responsiveness?<div><br></div><div>For example, in the desired "properties" bullets, add:</div><div><br></div><div>* normally responds to a technical email within 1-2 weeks</div><div><br></div><div>And I would agree with the assessment that this takes ~2 hours/week.</div><div><br></div><div>Richard</div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 9, 2018, at 7:40 AM, Manuel M T Chakravarty <<a href="mailto:chak@justtesting.org" target="_blank">chak@justtesting.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">I agree with Simon’s point about self-nominations; otherwise, I like Joachim’s proposal.<div><br></div><div>Manuel<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Am 09.07.2018 um 10:34 schrieb Simon Peyton Jones via ghc-steering-committee <<a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a>>:</div><br class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class="m_-3263319282192196953WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Ryan Newton has expressed interest in being rotated out of the<br>committee. I spoke to the Simons, and they indicate we should ask for<br>public nominations. Here is a draft of a mail I’d send to the usual<br>mailing lists. Please comment.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Good draft.  I support “conservative”.  I have made some suggesting drafting amendments (highlighted) below.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">I think nominations of someone else are ok, provided said person has explicitly consented.  It’s affirming to be nominated, but it erodes that affirmation if the person doing the encouraging has to say “but you have to nominate yourself”.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Simon<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">==========================<br>Dear community,<br><br>the GHC Steering committee is seeking nomination for a new member, and<br>ask for self-nominations.<br><br>The committee scrutinizes, nitpicks, improves, weights and eventually<br>accepts or rejects proposals that extend or change the language<br>supported by GHC and other (public-facing) aspects of GHC<br>Our processes are described in the README in<br><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc-proposals&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Ccac1713fd9614f04d17d08d5e56cdc25%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636667178065249408&sdata=X5dfzCxNJiKmvPkYrIEBTy4UZgCCmtiBJEXBsK21tVo%3D&reserved=0" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals</a><br>which is also the GitHub repository where proposals are proposed.<br><br>We are looking for a member who has the ability<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><br> * to understand such language extension proposals,<br> * to find holes and missing corner cases in the specifications,<br> * foresee the interaction with other language features and<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>   specifications,<br> * make constructive comments and improvements,<br> * judge the cost/benefit ratio and<br> * finally come to a justifiable conclusion.<br><br><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">We look for committee members who have some of these properties:</span><br><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">* have substantial experience in writing Haskell applications or libraries,<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">    which they can use to inform judgements about the utility or otherwise<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">    of proposed features</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">* have made<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">active contributions</span><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>to the Haskell community,<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">    for some time<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> * have expertise in language design and implementation, in<br>   <span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">either Haskell or</span><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>related language, which they can share with us.<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The GHC developers themselves are already<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">well</span><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>represented already.  We<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">seek Haskell<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>users</i><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>more than GHC hackers.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>The committee’s work requires a small, but non-trivial amount of time,<br>especially when you are assigned a proposal for shepherding. Please<br>keep that in mind if your email inbox is already<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">overflowing</span>.<br><br>There is no shortage of people who are<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><s>very</s><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>eager to get fancy new<br>features into the language, both in the committee and the wider<br>community.  <span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">But each new feature imposes a cost, to implement, to learn,<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">and (particularly) through its uexpected interaction with other features.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">We need to strike a balance, one that encourages innovation (as Haskell<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">always has) while still making Haskell attractive for real-world production<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">use.   We</span><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>therefore explicitly invite “conservative” members of the<br>community to join the committee.<br><br>To nominate yourself, please send an email to me (as the committee<br>secretary) at<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mail@joachim-breitner.de</a><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>until July 20th. I will<br>distribute the nominations among the committee, and we will keep the<br>nominations and our deliberations private.<br><br>You<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="background-color:yellow;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">can</span><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>nominate others, but you must obtain their explicit consent to do so.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">(We don’t want to choose someone who turns out to be unable to serve.)<br><br>On behalf of the committee,<br>Joachim Breitner<br>==========================<br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt"><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>ghc-steering-committee <<a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee-bounces@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee-bounces@haskell.org</a>><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Simon Marlow<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>09 July 2018 08:23<br><b>To:</b><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>Joachim Breitner <<a href="mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de" target="_blank">mail@joachim-breitner.de</a>><br><b>Cc:</b><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [ghc-steering-committee] Solicitation for a new member<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This looks great to me.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On the amount of time required - can we put a ballpark figure on this? Perhaps 2 hours per week on average, more when going in depth into proposals. How much do other people spend? I worry that "small but non-trivial" means different things to different people.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I'm ok with "conservative".<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cheers<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Simon<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On 7 July 2018 at 15:48, Joachim Breitner <<a href="mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mail@joachim-breitner.de</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear Committee,<br><br>Ryan Newton has expressed interest in being rotated out of the<br>committee. I spoke to the Simons, and they indicate we should ask for<br>public nominations. Here is a draft of a mail I’d send to the usual<br>mailing lists. Please comment.<br><br>==========================<br>Dear community,<br><br>the GHC Steering committee is seeking nomination for a new member, and<br>ask for self-nominations.<br><br>The committee scrutinizes, nitpicks, improves, weights and eventually<br>accepts or rejects proposals that extend or change the language<br>supported by GHC and other (public-facing) aspects of GHC<br>Our processes are described in the README in<br><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fghc-proposals%2Fghc-proposals&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Ccac1713fd9614f04d17d08d5e56cdc25%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636667178065249408&sdata=X5dfzCxNJiKmvPkYrIEBTy4UZgCCmtiBJEXBsK21tVo%3D&reserved=0" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals</a><br>which is also the GitHub repository where proposals are proposed.<br><br>We are looking for a member who has the ability<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><br> * to understand such language extension proposals,<br> * to find holes and missing corner cases in the specifications,<br> * foresee the interaction with other language features and<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>   specifications,<br> * make constructive comments and improvements,<br> * judge the cost/benefit ratio and<br> * finally come to a justifiable conclusion.<br><br>Particular pluses that we look for are<br> * candidates who have been in the community for some time, and/or<br> * who have expertise in language design and implementation in<br>   related language, which they can share with us.<br><br>The committee work requires a small, but non-trivial amount of time,<br>especially when you are assigned a proposal for shepherding. Please<br>keep that in mind if your email inbox is already flowing over.<br><br>There is no shortage of people who are very eager to get fancy new<br>features into the language, both in the committee and the wider<br>community. I therefore explicitly invite “conservative” members of the<br>community to join the committee.<br><br>The GHC developers themselves are nicely represented already. Having<br>hacked on GHC is not a requirement.<br><br><br>To nominate yourself, please send an email to me (as the committee<br>secretary) at<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mail@joachim-breitner.de</a><span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span>until July 20th. I will<br>distribute the nominations among the committee, and we will keep the<br>nominations and our deliberations private.<br><br>You cannot nominate others. But if you know of anyone else you’d think<br>should be on the committee, please do encourage them, or talk to us and<br>we can encourage them.<br><br>On behalf of the committee,<br>Joachim Breitner<br>==========================<br><br><br>Note worth discussing:<br><br> * I see no point in non-self-nominations. We can only have members<br>   that want to do this.<br><br> * Do we want to encourage “conservative” members? Is that the right <span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>   wording? (I see the committee a bit as a flood gate that protects<br>   against premature and not-worth-it changes. We are doing a good<br>   job of that – most of my proposals get rejected ;-) – but I think<br>   it would not hurt to explicitly keep it that way.<br><br> * One could consider public nominations and deliberations, but I feel<br>   that a public discussion of who we think is the “best” is not very<br>   nice.<br><br><br>Cheers,<br>Joachim<br><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><br><span class="m_-3263319282192196953hoenzb">--<span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br><span class="m_-3263319282192196953hoenzb">Joachim Breitner</span><br><span class="m_-3263319282192196953hoenzb"> <span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mail@joachim-breitner.de" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mail@joachim-breitner.de</a></span><br><span class="m_-3263319282192196953hoenzb"> <span class="m_-3263319282192196953Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joachim-breitner.de%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Ccac1713fd9614f04d17d08d5e56cdc25%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636667178065259412&sdata=vab8j7i%2F9tp7QLt4CicceON5iDPoj779PGgH7KBEXpo%3D&reserved=0" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://www.joachim-breitner.de/</a></span><br></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>ghc-steering-committee mailing list<br><a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a><br><a href="https://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-steering-committee" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-steering-committee</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 6pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">ghc-steering-committee mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important"><a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important"><a href="https://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-steering-committee" target="_blank">https://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-steering-committee</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>ghc-steering-committee mailing list<br><a href="mailto:ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-steering-committee@haskell.org</a><br><a href="https://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-steering-committee" target="_blank">https://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-steering-committee</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div>