[Haskell-beginners] Fwd: GHC 7.10 Prelude: we need your opinion
Kim-Ee Yeoh
ky3 at atamo.com
Tue Feb 10 16:46:26 UTC 2015
Simon PJ missed out the haskell-beginners list, but I encourage you to fill
out the survey below as well.
Now you may ask, "Well, I'm still learning haskell and I don't know enough."
But consider that by being on this list and by haskelling whatever you may
consider as utterly insignificant, you're still waaaaaaaay ahead than those
who have yet to reach haskell at all.
Your opinion counts.
Because those _after_ you will help provide jobs by creating haskell
projects, just like you.
But unlike them, you get to influence the haskell of tomorrow that will be
their first encounter, whether that would be a haskell that's friendlier or
more @#$%^& than what it is today.
The survey link is here:
*http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>*
Summaries (each quite long) are here:
· Overall summary: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710
<https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE1p5w-YCXC7ixebvwObayuV7Ut4w>
· Details of Plan List:
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
<https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FList&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHaufeSwtIsvZwdVXwP9F9G45zLSA>
· Details of Plan FTP:
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/FTP
<https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FFTP&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHbhNyIwAbcOd3JfikIhD6S7rc-vw>
Fwiw, I voted to delay FTP. In fact, here's what I wrote:
"FTP is rushed and potentially unstable. I don't think we understand all
about Traversable that we think we do, which might mean another big Prelude
overhaul in the future.
Actually, FTP doesn't even belong in 7.12 per se. It belongs in a new
Haskell language standard and if that coincides with GHC 7.12, great. If
not, it can wait for GHC 8.x and up."
Because I've been keeping tabs on FTP I wrote my opinion without perusing
the summaries, but on doing so later, I stumbled upon the following points
that happen to reflect my exact observations, points that are relevant to
learning haskell and growing the haskell community:
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
- The existing corpus of books, tutorials, syllabi, and the like usually
have a significant portion of the text dedicated to these very Prelude
functions - and they would all need significant revision.
- Teaching beginners what sequence means in its full generality is going
to be a challenge.
- While teaching beginners who end up on #haskell IRC might be possible,
this is likely to increase the "bounce" rate, people who see Haskell, play
around, and run away scared. I think Haskell probably has a higher bounce
rate than most other languages, making it worse would be bad.
Whether you agree or disagree with the above, now's the time to make
yourself heard. The survey closes Feb 21.
p.s. Needless to say, feel free to discuss FTP on this list should your
opinion need a sounding board and a bit of time (not too long!) to firm up.
-- Kim-Ee
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Simon Peyton Jones <simonpj at microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:50 PM
Subject: GHC 7.10 Prelude: we need your opinion
To: "haskell at haskell.org" <haskell at haskell.org>, "Haskell Cafe (
haskell-cafe at haskell.org)" <haskell-cafe at haskell.org>, GHC users <
glasgow-haskell-users at haskell.org>, "ghc-devs at haskell.org" <
ghc-devs at haskell.org>
Haskell Friends
*This email asks for your help in deciding how to proceed with some Prelude
changes in GHC 7.10. Please read on, but all the info is also at the
survey link, here: http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX
<http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>. Deadline is 21 Feb.*
The Core Libraries Committee (CLC) is responsible for developing the core
libraries that ship with GHC. This is an important but painstaking task,
and we owe the CLC a big vote of thanks for taking it on.
For over a year the CLC has been working on integrating the *Foldable and
Traversable classes* (shipped in base in GHC 7.8) into the core libraries,
and into the Prelude in particular. Detailed planning for GHC 7.10 started
in the autumn of 2014, and the CLC went ahead with this integration.
Then we had a failure of communication. As these changes affect the
Prelude, which is in scope for all users of Haskell, these changes should
be held to a higher bar than the regular libraries@ review process.
However, the Foldable/Traversable changes were not particularly well
signposted. Many people have only recently woken up to them, and some have
objected (both in principle and detail).
This is an extremely unfortunate situation. On the one hand we are at RC2
for GHC 7.10, so library authors have invested effort in updating their
libraries to the new Prelude. On the other, altering the Prelude is in
effect altering the language, something we take pretty seriously. We should
have had this debate back in 2014, but here we are, and it is unproductive
to argue about whose fault it is. We all share responsibility.
We need to decide what to do now. A small group of us met by Skype and
we've decided to do this:
· Push back GHC 7.10's release by at least a month, to late March.
This delay also gives us breathing space to address an unrelated
show-stopping bug, Trac #9858.
· Invite input from the Haskell community on which of two
approaches to adopt (this survey <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>). The
main questions revolve around impact on the Haskell ecosystem (commercial
applications, teaching, libraries, etc etc), so we want to ask your opinion
rather than guess it.
· Ask Simon Marlow and Simon Peyton Jones to decide which approach
to follow for GHC 7.10.
Wiki pages have been created summarizing these two primary alternatives,
including many more points and counter-points and technical details:
· Overall summary: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710
<https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE1p5w-YCXC7ixebvwObayuV7Ut4w>
· Details of Plan List:
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List
<https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FList&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHaufeSwtIsvZwdVXwP9F9G45zLSA>
· Details of Plan FTP:
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/FTP
<https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FFTP&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHbhNyIwAbcOd3JfikIhD6S7rc-vw>
This survey invites your input on which plan we should follow. Would you
please
· Read the details of the alternative plans on the three wiki pages
above
· Add your response to the survey <http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX>
Please do read the background. Well-informed responses will help. Thank
you!
*DEADLINE: 21 February 2015*
Simon PJ
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